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Kind of confused...


SandraM

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Hi all,

 

I'm fairly new to this software, and I'm a little confused about the difference between

views. I've looked through the topics and Help feature and I think perhaps I just

misunderstand the way information is created/displayed.

 

If I create a notebook entry in Storyboard view, then switch to Text view, I expected

to see the same material in two different ways. Instead, I have to recreate the entry

in Text view.

 

Is this a bug, or am I just not understanding how to use this properly? Any help

greatly appreciated! I'm using Storyist 2.1.3 on Mac 10.6.1.

 

- Sandra

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Hi all,

 

I'm fairly new to this software, and I'm a little confused about the difference between

views. I've looked through the topics and Help feature and I think perhaps I just

misunderstand the way information is created/displayed.

 

If I create a notebook entry in Storyboard view, then switch to Text view, I expected

to see the same material in two different ways. Instead, I have to recreate the entry

in Text view.

 

Is this a bug, or am I just not understanding how to use this properly? Any help

greatly appreciated! I'm using Storyist 2.1.3 on Mac 10.6.1.

 

- Sandra

 

Hi Sandra,

 

The index card in the Storyboard view contains your notes on the document, not it's contents. Think of it as a card catalog entry. You can use the index cards to summarize the contents, jot down todos, etc...

 

-Steve

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm confused, too. I can't seem to get the sidebar on the left to add items to each manuscript. I want chapters added, then scenes within, and want to drag these about to change order.

 

I've been struggling with the simplest of tasks: trying to add a scene to a manuscript. No, I don't want the nearly-useless-to-me "Scene Sheet." Just want to add a scene, using the sidebar on the left. Stymied, I am, after multiple readings of the help file, the 2.0 User's Guide, even a note or two from Steve.

 

I've written a novel using Scrivener, and it's not this obtuse to learn. I haven't even read anything like a User's Guide. Storyist is just very different, and frankly, the writing in the documentation is pretty spare. Or maybe all the things I expect Storyist to do it simply doesn't. Or if it does them, it appears as anything but simple.

 

I purchased the software in a 1.x version, and I've been trying to review the 2.x release. Not having a lot of luck getting started so far. I must be approaching the task from the wrong angle. :P

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Hi Ron,

 

I'm confused, too. I can't seem to get the sidebar on the left to add items to each manuscript. I want chapters added, then scenes within, and want to drag these about to change order.

 

I've been struggling with the simplest of tasks: trying to add a scene to a manuscript. No, I don't want the nearly-useless-to-me "Scene Sheet." Just want to add a scene, using the sidebar on the left. Stymied, I am, after multiple readings of the help file, the 2.0 User's Guide, even a note or two from Steve.

 

Adding a chapter or section should be a very simple task: just select a chapter or section in the project view and click the Add (+) button in the bottom bar. Another way to accomplish this is to select a chapter or section in the Project view and choose Project > Add to "My Manuscript" > Chapter or Project > Add to "My Manuscript" > Section. Or just type them in the manuscript and they will appear in the project view.

 

You can see this in action by creating a new project from the Novel template and following the above steps.

 

You've probably read them already, but the relevant sections in the User's Guide are Adding Outline Elements to Project Items and Editing Outline Level Properties along with the section in the Getting Started Guide (available from the help menu) titled "Adding Chapters and Sections."

 

Since this is a relatively simple operation, I'm guessing that there is an issue with your style sheet. I'd be happy to take a look at an excerpt from your project if you'd like. It is probably something simple.

 

Note that the outline in the project view follows the outline level of the text in your manuscript. If you're not using the default Novel template, make sure that your chapter style has an outline level of 1 and that your section (body text) style has an outline level of Body Text.

 

-Steve

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Hi Steve,

 

I must be getting stuck on the terminology. And I've probably messed up my project's style formatting.

 

In my project, going to the Add (+) button creates either 1. An untitled section that contains all of the text of the Chapter Style or 2. A blank Untitled Note down in the bookmarks.

 

Editing styles? "Open the Inspector and select the Style panel." Choosing the Inspector button reveals that I have no styles to edit. Ah, now I select some text in one of the chapters. Now I can edit styles.

 

Okay. Starting over. Brand new project. Choosing Novel template. Click on My Manuscript. Click on Add (+). A new Untitled Note 6 appears under bookmarks. Whoops.

 

Restart application. Choose New Project, choose Novel template. Placeholder MS appears with two chapters. Yes, I can add a chapter or section from either Add (+) or menu. Changing the page margins to comply with editor standard 1-in? How to do this...

 

More: Now select all (command-A), press delete, and start writing! says the Chapter 1. As soon as I press delete, the entire chapter vanishes in the left sidebar. Now when I press Add (+) I get Untitled Bookmarks, not chapters. The menu's "Add to "My Manuscript" still has Chapter and Section options, though.

 

I'm either the dumbest user that you've ever encountered, or something just isn't fitting me here. I just recall an e-mail exchange we had in the fall. I said that it looked like styles were really important to using Storyist. You said, "The only place styles come into play is in the Project view, where they determine the outline level." All I'm trying to do here is add fresh Chapters and Sections that appear with MY formatting.

 

I'm so thick that I don't understand what "Chapter Title style has an outline (heading) level of 1" really means. Base level is 1? Level 1 is indented one level?

 

I bought this product once but didn't find a project to plug into it. Now I'd like to give it a shot, but this is an awful lot of time to get started. If you're hand-holding everybody who's as baffled as I am, I can only hope nearly every customer gets started easier than I have.

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Quick tip from fellow writer: don't use Command-A and wipe out all the text, which also, as you note, zaps the styles. Use the Project Pane to delete Chapter 2 in your new project based on the Novel template (click on Chapter 2 and when it goes dark, hit Delete). Do the same thing with sections 2 and 3 of Chapter 1. Then double-click on the remaining paragraph to select it and type your first paragraph. Bingo! The styles are retained.

 

Now double-click on the words Start Writing! in the Project Pane and give them the name you want your new section to have. Hit Return.

 

From there, you have two choices for adding sections. If you're in the Project Pane and a chapter is selected, clicking on + will add another chapter. If a section is selected, + will add another section. If a note is selected, + will add another note. And so on for characters, settings, plot points, whatever. If you want something else, use the gear menu and pick the choice you want.

 

Second choice, if you're in the manuscript, is to type #, then double-click to select the # and choose Section Separator from the little box listing styles at the bottom of the window. Storyist goes "ooh, new section" and creates one. You can then rename it in the Project Pane, as above, whenever you get tired of looking at Untitled Section 1.

 

For styles, I adjust a paragraph of text using the Inspector, double-click to select it (if it's not already selected), then choose Format > Styles > Create New Style from Selection and make sure there's a check mark next to "Apply style on closing" (not the exact wording, probably).

 

That should get you started. It shouldn't be difficult. But Steve, there is an issue here with the documentation. Ask Christina to come up with a quick "getting started" guide written for writers, not programmers. Even the explanations you were giving made too many assumptions for people who just want their Macs to get out of the way while they write!

 

Best of luck, Ron, and please do write back (and stick with Storyist). I'm sorry you had such a frustrating start-up experience, but it is a great program, and it's really not as unintuitive as it seems to have been for you.

Regards,

Marguerite

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Marguerite, thanks for the tips. I can tell that they come from a fellow writer. Funny you should mention writing documentation for programmers. 20 years ago I completed a computer manual job for a developer who built a tool for system administrators. I learned a lot about precise language, but not many of those lessons apply to non-technical readers.

 

It was also my first and last manual job. Not much there but the money...

 

So I'm humming along and I want to be able to hit the tab key and indent my paragraphs. Storyist doesn't want to do that. When I paste in copy from Word, the tabs are there. But once I delete any of them, I simply can't get them back. I don't want first-line-indents -- those don't travel as seemlessly as a good old tab.

 

Any idea how to get the tab key to deliver a tab to the page?

 

PS. Honestly, all this style stuff looks like its shaped for screenplay writers. I love 'em and their creativity. But putting styles so front and center as a default really makes Storyist look like it wants to challenge Final Draft. Best of luck on making a dent in that juggernaut.

 

PPS. Nice to have a community to pick up the slack in documentation!

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... don't use Command-A and wipe out all the text, which also, as you note, zaps the styles.

 

Actually, when you execute Select All followed by Delete in a text file, Storyist deletes all text (as it should) but does not delete the style sheet. The styles remain in the empty document and are available for use.

 

I think Ron's point was that Select All/Delete deletes the chapters and sections from the Project outline, which it does, since the underlying text is deleted.

 

Now select all (command-A), press delete, and start writing! says the Chapter 1. As soon as I press delete, the entire chapter vanishes in the left sidebar.

 

-Steve

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So I'm humming along and I want to be able to hit the tab key and indent my paragraphs. Storyist doesn't want to do that. When I paste in copy from Word, the tabs are there. But once I delete any of them, I simply can't get them back. I don't want first-line-indents -- those don't travel as seemlessly as a good old tab.

 

Any idea how to get the tab key to deliver a tab to the page?

 

By default, Storyist uses first-line-indents for indenting paragraphs and the Tab key to quickly change formatting.

 

To use the Tab key to insert hard tabs:

 

  1. Uncheck the "Pressing Tab in an empty paragraph cycles through styles" checkbox in the application preferences.
  2. Make sure the ruler has a tab stop at the desired indent position. (The Section Text style in the Novel template already has one at 0.5 inches.)

 

-Steve

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Actually Steve is right (surprise! he built the thing). :P Ron, try this: it's pretty cool, actually.

 

1. Open a new file based on the Novel template.

2. Click in the text window. Hit Command-A and delete.

3. All the text disappears, as do the chapter and section headings in the project pane.

4. Your cursor is now blinking large at the top of the text window. Type "chapter 1."

5. A new chapter appears in the Project Pane, right where the old chapter 1 was.

6. Hit return to move to the next line and type your first paragraph. Note that it is formatted as Section Text.

7. Click on the arrow next to Chapter 1 in the Project Pane and see that Storyist has created a new section for you. Rename it.

 

I never use tabs. I love the automatic indents—and the styles, because when I export my text to RTF so I can read it on my Kindle or for my non-Storyist-owning critique group, I can read that RTF file into a Word document that I have already set up with duplicate style names and, presto, the whole thing formats its little self in the blink of an eye.

 

And actually Storyist documentation is pretty good. How many programs supply a printed manual these days? But perhaps a little more step-by-step instruction for people just starting up wouldn't go amiss. Why not make a list of things you desperately wanted to know right away and send Steve a PM? I'm sure he wants to make new users happy even more than you do.

Best,

M

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Marguerite,

 

I won't be using Cmd-A plus delete to get started, based on the experience I've received on a starting a new file for a newbie user. Go ahead -- start a new project, read the included chapter and then hit the Cmd-A key and delete.

 

1. Yes, now those chapters have disappeared on the left

2. ... and so you're looking at a blank page in your text window without even a page number (unless you start scrolling up)

3. Okay, so you somehow manage to search to the top of the page 1

4. Along the way you notice you have four pages in your new chapter, which seems a bit odd, since you're created nothing yet

5. But you type gamely, Chapter 1 or "The Worst of Times" -- and here it comes in all caps, just like a Good Screenplay should. Such a tilt toward screenplays! In the help text for Editing Project Item Preferences the Editing Mode help launched like this:

 

Editing Mode: A popup specifying the editor features enabled for the file. Available values are

1. Screenplay—Used for screenplays and stage plays. (And then goes on to detail all the elements "like scene intros, locations, times, characters, extensions, and transitions."

 

Hey, I chose the Novel template. Why are the program's default preferences for Screenplays?

 

Startup instruction on styles is missing a key step; in Editing Styles:

 

"To open the style editor:

 

1. Open the Inspector and select the Style panel.

2. Click on the disclosure (triangle) button of the style you want to edit. A menu appears.

3. Choose Edit Style.

 

Oops, we're missing Step 0. "Click in the text window." The Style panel faithfully appears if you don't do Step 0. The panel is empty, though :P

 

Putting docs on paper? Right, very 20th Century. But the Tabs instructions are way down in the last Help File selection. You get to the correct help file page. But you can't search a Help File page like you can a PDF document, so you can read the appropriate line of a vast Help File page. Instead, you get another search of the whole help file. Would it be too daring to include Storyist's Manual as a PDF?

 

And so here we are on a subscription-required forum, with me getting instructions on how to kick-start Storyist for writing a Novel. (Or a report, or an article. You get the point.) Board posts are an unusual training experience, for me. Storyist's startup is probably intuitive for screenwriters, but my Mac experience doesn't usually lead me to a bulletin board to untangle early attempts to create with a program. (Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for your help, and Steve's.) But could this documentation be a roadblock to a user who needs General Editing Mode, or hasn't the time to wait for a board reply or e-mail? It has been for me.

 

I won't be recommending Storyist's documentation, but that's just my opinion. (I'm thinking that subscribing to the user forum should be a part of program installation. Writers hang out there.) I'm sure there are novelists here who just jumped right in and started composing, hitting their Tab key and loving that those screenplay transition formats popped right up -- and that their Chapter titles needed to have their styles revised, away from ALL CAPS.

 

There's so much that's right with this program, like the writing session and project targets, or an easy way to create and manage bookmarks, or the corkboard index card arranging and coloring. What could be better? Make it easier to choose your own format to start, instead of drafting a screenplay. Give me an clue on how to format my pages for 1-inch all around margins, so I can keep track of my MS page count. Start with something other than Courier, standard in the screenplay world but antique for any other submission format. Let me use my tabs in as a default, rather than making me go to Preferences to tinker with Editing Project Item Preferences.

 

It's great to have an RTF export file to print out for yourself. Um, I don't get Chapter 1 or 2 as items to export in the list of Export Project Items... dialog box. Sure, I get lots of other things, like a Section. You won't believe what I got exported when I chose that section (I called mine DX) to export. A synopsis sheet, bereft of details. I had to choose my whole manuscript to export. The dialog on where you're exporting is kind of Unix-y, too: Displayed as a Unix directory "seybold/documents/etc" after you choose it, rather than the standard file folder interface on Just About Every Other Program. That's extra coding, but worth it. I find that the exported manuscript has my beloved tabs where those first-line indents used to be.

 

Okay, I can tell I'm getting a tone on here. Well, this is one place to work out the confusion :) Thanks for the airing and the patience. The reviews say that Scrivener has a steep start-up curve. I've worked them both from scratch and found one a lot steeper than the other. I'm glad to have these picayune fundamentals explained. Documentation is really hard, a dying art. Testing it is even harder. Consider my whining to be a bit of unsolicited testing on the 2.1 docs :) I want to see Storyist get friendlier on startup to writers launching something other than a screenplay. I believe in that future -- I bought the 1.0 version of Storyist!

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"Well," she murmured, "I am a novelist, and I have used the screenplay template only once, when trying to help another forum member who was having trouble with the styles."

 

I came to Storyist 1.1 directly from Word. It took me a while to figure out what I could do with the section sheets (I now have one for each chapter, with notes to self and points I don't want to forget halfway through the 100,000 words) and the plot points (I use them to monitor the stages of the Hero's Journey and for on-the-fly explorations of how to get my characters out of the corner into which I have just painted them). The character and settings sheets I glommed onto right away, and I haven't had any trouble figuring out how to make the text work (have my own custom styles and everything), maybe because I use styles in Word. But I do not find the Novel template "screenplay-like" at all. Chapters? Sections? Characters? The screenplay template adds Parentheticals and Actions and has completely different formatting, none of which would work in a novel.

 

Yes, acclimating to version 2, which is much more flexible, does require a mental shift. It also opens up lots of possibilities: I now have a Timeline made up of plot points and comments reminding me about some crucial character interaction and images used in multiple places and quite a few other things not possible either in version 1 or (last time I checked) in Scrivener. And with multiple windows, I can see groups of my characters and settings in one window while writing about them in another. Not to mention bookmarks: if you value your typing fingers, don't diss Thoth's bookmarks, let alone recommend some other program that doesn't have them. :P

 

My experience with the Export Assistant also seems to have been different from yours. And—as Steve and Thoth and most of the other regular forum members will tell you—I whine about file imports and exports more than any other user. But I have never seen the equivalent of seybold/documents/etc (and yes, I recognize the Unix associations of that). The last directory where I saved the RTF file pops up, waiting to be chosen, and it looks like any other directory on the Mac. Are you sure your Mac isn't mad at you about something? :)

 

One more hint: open the Novel template, adjust it to use tabs, and save it as a template. That's what the rest of us would have to do (in reverse), if using tabs were the default instead of first-line indents.

Cheers,

M

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Ron,

 

I won't be using Cmd-A plus delete to get started, based on the experience I've received on a starting a new file for a newbie user. Go ahead -- start a new project, read the included chapter and then hit the Cmd-A key and delete.

 

1. Yes, now those chapters have disappeared on the left

2. ... and so you're looking at a blank page in your text window without even a page number (unless you start scrolling up)

3. Okay, so you somehow manage to search to the top of the page 1

4. Along the way you notice you have four pages in your new chapter, which seems a bit odd, since you're created nothing yet

5. But you type gamely, Chapter 1 or "The Worst of Times" -- and here it comes in all caps, just like a Good Screenplay should. Such a tilt toward screenplays! In the help text for Editing Project Item Preferences the Editing Mode help launched like this:

 

Editing Mode: A popup specifying the editor features enabled for the file. Available values are

1. Screenplay—Used for screenplays and stage plays. (And then goes on to detail all the elements "like scene intros, locations, times, characters, extensions, and transitions."

 

Hey, I chose the Novel template. Why are the program's default preferences for Screenplays?

 

The all caps formatting has nothing to do with screenplays. When you type "Chapter 1," the text is in all caps because the Chapter Title style is set to format text in all caps. To see this in action, take a look at the chapter titles before you delete the text. This is more or less standard for novel manuscripts set in Courier. You can change this, if you wish, by editing the Chapter Title style and setting the transform to None.

 

Startup instruction on styles is missing a key step; in Editing Styles:

 

"To open the style editor:

 

1. Open the Inspector and select the Style panel.

2. Click on the disclosure (triangle) button of the style you want to edit. A menu appears.

3. Choose Edit Style.

 

Oops, we're missing Step 0. "Click in the text window." The Style panel faithfully appears if you don't do Step 0. The panel is empty, though :P

 

The in-app instructions appear to be missing this step. Good catch. I'll make sure the in-app version is updated. Fortunately, the online version and the PDF version of the documentation adds "First, select the text you want to change. Then, do one of the following:"

 

Putting docs on paper? Right, very 20th Century. But the Tabs instructions are way down in the last Help File selection. You get to the correct help file page. But you can't search a Help File page like you can a PDF document, so you can read the appropriate line of a vast Help File page. Instead, you get another search of the whole help file. Would it be too daring to include Storyist's Manual as a PDF?

 

Actually, you can search the Help file, and Storyist's manual is available as a PDF. In fact, the docs are available in four (4!) editions:

 

  1. The in-app edition. Accessed and searchable from the Help menu. You can also search the Help page content using the Find command from the Action (gear) menu in the Help toolbar.
  2. The online edition. Linked from the main support page. You can even leave comments in the chapters for sections that aren't clear.
  3. The PDF edition. Linked from the main support page.
  4. The print edition.

 

There's so much that's right with this program, like the writing session and project targets, or an easy way to create and manage bookmarks, or the corkboard index card arranging and coloring. What could be better? Make it easier to choose your own format to start, instead of drafting a screenplay.

 

I really think the screenplay comments are off-the-mark for the reason described above.

 

Give me an clue on how to format my pages for 1-inch all around margins, so I can keep track of my MS page count.

 

Choose Format > Page and enter 1" in the margin fields.

 

See the section titled "Setting Page Margins" in the User's Guide or pull down the Help menu, type "page margins" in the search field, and choose the first hit ("Setting Page Margins") for more info.

 

Start with something other than Courier, standard in the screenplay world but antique for any other submission format.

 

Well, one man's "antique" is another man's "standard." :)

 

I would consider adding a second Novel template if there is enough demand. In the mean time, Marguerite posted a Times New Roman template in the Sharing section and you can find a "first draft" of a screencast on the topic here.

 

Let me use my tabs in as a default, rather than making me go to Preferences to tinker with Editing Project Item Preferences.

 

People really like this feature, so I probably won't change the default. I'm might, though, add a dialog that asks you for your preference the first time you press the Tab key.

 

-Steve

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Hi Steve,

 

Steve: "When you type "Chapter 1," the text is in all caps because the Chapter Title style is set to format text in all caps."

 

Okay, withdrawn. See, "Formatting and Submitting Your Manuscript," Writer's Digest Press, p. 161. You're right about all caps.

 

Steve, on step 0: The in-app instructions appear to be missing this step. Good catch. I'll make sure the in-app version is updated. Fortunately, the online version[/url] and the PDF version of the documentation adds "First, select the text you want to change. Then, do one of the following:"

 

If only we were alerted to the existence of a PDF help file before we started work. Here's an idea: Make that information part of the dummy text in Chapter 1. Near the top, please; include the link to the support page, in full. Help me help myself and you cut down on your direct support. The existing dummy text for Chapter 1 is of far less help.

 

Steve: [searching the Help pages is in] the in-app edition. Accessed and searchable from the Help menu. You can also search the Help page content using the Find command from the Action (gear) menu in the Help toolbar.

 

I keep forgetting to look at that Action gear. Very important in Storyist. I just looked at the open search field on the right hand top corner and used it.

 

Steve: I really think the screenplay comments are off-the-mark for the reason described above.

 

So we disagree. Looks on-base to me. I've written a screenplay and have a raft of them in my bookcase. The default behavior and styles are suited to screenplay formats. Even when you choose a Novel template.

 

Steve, on Courier: Well, one man's "antique" is another man's "standard." :P

 

Not in the book and novel and article world, I'm afraid. Larger character widths push your page count. Agents look at the final MS page to see how long your book is. Advice against Courier is easy to find.

 

Steve: I would consider adding a second Novel template if there is enough demand. In the mean time, Marguerite posted a Times New Roman template in the Sharing section and you can find a "first draft" of a screencast on the topic here.

 

So how do I integrate a user-created Template? The above screencast shows me how to plug it in?

 

Steve: People really like this [Tab] feature, so I probably won't change the default. I'm might, though, add a dialog that asks you for your preference the first time you press the Tab key.

 

It's a great idea for a first-time dialog to improve the ease of use in the first experience. Let me recommend strongly that your default matches Word's. It's where most writers are coming from.

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"Well," she murmured, "I am a novelist, and I have used the screenplay template only once, when trying to help another forum member who was having trouble with the styles."

My experience with the Export Assistant also seems to have been different from yours. And—as Steve and Thoth and most of the other regular forum members will tell you—I whine about file imports and exports more than any other user. But I have never seen the equivalent of seybold/documents/etc (and yes, I recognize the Unix associations of that). The last directory where I saved the RTF file pops up, waiting to be chosen, and it looks like any other directory on the Mac. Are you sure your Mac isn't mad at you about something? :P

 

You know what I mean. Export Directory is followed by the stock Unix destination format. If I could figure out how to include a screenshot in this forum, I'd show you. My Mac misbehaves at times, but it's rarely mad at me. Me at it? Another issue.

 

Some of this takes on the tone of "I never expected anything but what it gave me." I wish I'd had that experience. 30 years of publishing experience has led me to look for tabs in a file, not indents controlled by Word.

 

Now if I can get a handle on using your Times New Roman template, I can get started :)

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Hi Ron,

 

Steve: "When you type "Chapter 1," the text is in all caps because the Chapter Title style is set to format text in all caps."

 

Okay, withdrawn. See, "Formatting and Submitting Your Manuscript," Writer's Digest Press, p. 161. You're right about all caps.

 

Just checked my copy. Glad to know that Writer's Digest agrees. :)

 

Also noticed that they set the example manuscript in Courier... :P

 

Steve, on step 0: The in-app instructions appear to be missing this step. Good catch. I'll make sure the in-app version is updated. Fortunately, the online version[/url] and the PDF version of the documentation adds "First, select the text you want to change. Then, do one of the following:"

 

If only we were alerted to the existence of a PDF help file before we started work. Here's an idea: Make that information part of the dummy text in Chapter 1. Near the top, please; include the link to the support page, in full. Help me help myself and you cut down on your direct support. The existing dummy text for Chapter 1 is of far less help.

 

Adding a link to the PDF (and the online edition) makes sense, though it would probably go in the "Getting More Information" section along with the link to the forums.

 

Also, it might help to rename the Help menu item from "Visit Storyist Website" to "Visit Storyist Support Website."

 

Steve: [searching the Help pages is in] the in-app edition. Accessed and searchable from the Help menu. You can also search the Help page content using the Find command from the Action (gear) menu in the Help toolbar.

 

I keep forgetting to look at that Action gear. Very important in Storyist. I just looked at the open search field on the right hand top corner and used it.

 

That particular Action button is "owned" by Apple and is a system-wide Help feature. Check out the Safari Help file (if you're using Safari) to see what I mean.

 

And don't get me started on Help. :) The fact that the Help viewer became a floating window in Leopard still irks me.

 

Steve: I really think the screenplay comments are off-the-mark for the reason described above.

 

So we disagree. Looks on-base to me. I've written a screenplay and have a raft of them in my bookcase. The default behavior and styles are suited to screenplay formats. Even when you choose a Novel template.

 

Then I need to understand what you are saying better. I took the comment that the default behavior and style are geared to screenwriters instead of novelists to mean:

 

1) You thought the all caps in the Novel template was a hold-over from screenwriting (it isn't).

 

2) The default use of the Tab key to quickly switch formatting was appropriate for writing screenplays but not novels.

 

I think we resolved the first item. For the second, I guess I'm having trouble seeing how user interface shortcuts are somehow appropriate for screenwriting but not for novel writing. Yes, you don't find them in Word, but I'd like to think that Storyist brings some innovation there. :)

 

Steve, on Courier: Well, one man's "antique" is another man's "standard." :)

 

Not in the book and novel and article world, I'm afraid. Larger character widths push your page count. Agents look at the final MS page to see how long your book is. Advice against Courier is easy to find.

 

I can't comment on the article world, but it is still the standard in the novel world (though Times New Roman is becoming more and more common).

 

While there are good arguments for using something other than Courier, estimating manuscript size isn't one of them. Courier is a fixed-width font, so estimating the length of a printed work (in another font) is easier, not harder. With a proportional font like Times New Roman, you have to take into account the frequency of the occurrence of characters in the language to account for the different widths of the font glyphs.

 

Steve: I would consider adding a second Novel template if there is enough demand. In the mean time, Marguerite posted a Times New Roman template in the Sharing section and you can find a "first draft" of a screencast on the topic here.

 

So how do I integrate a user-created Template? The above screencast shows me how to plug it in?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. The user-created project templates live in the ~/Library/Application Support/Storyist/Templates folder. The final screencast should mention this. The Save as Template command defaults to the correct directory.

 

Steve: People really like this [Tab] feature, so I probably won't change the default. I'm might, though, add a dialog that asks you for your preference the first time you press the Tab key.

 

It's a great idea for a first-time dialog to improve the ease of use in the first experience. Let me recommend strongly that your default matches Word's. It's where most writers are coming from.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

-Steve

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Hi Steve,

 

Well, we can debate the Courier stuff a long while. It's only advantage, to quote one agent, is to give the fresh reader a feeling of moving through the story. It's harder to read (any fixed-width font is) and it's got little to do with estimating word count. When a writer reports their novel is 98,000 words, it's easy enough to check in a Word document. The only other metric you can rattle off is how many pages the MS is.

 

As for the p. 161 example in the Writer's Digest book, there's not a lick of Courier on the page of my 2009 edition.

 

My beef with Tabs-to-jump-twixt-styles is that I don't use styles in manuscript writing. Maybe many others do. At this point I gotta just shut up and let you have your voice on how the program works.

 

I am grateful for all the learning I've gleaned from this discussion. Thanks to everybody.

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Hi Ron,

 

Well, we can debate the Courier stuff a long while. It's only advantage, to quote one agent, is to give the fresh reader a feeling of moving through the story. It's harder to read (any fixed-width font is) and it's got little to do with estimating word count. When a writer reports their novel is 98,000 words, it's easy enough to check in a Word document. The only other metric you can rattle off is how many pages the MS is.

 

As for the p. 161 example in the Writer's Digest book, there's not a lick of Courier on the page of my 2009 edition.

 

Mine is from 98. BTW, I just realized that the link to the screen cast on creating the Times New Roman template was broken.

 

The correct link is http://storyist.com/assets/screencasts/Cus...t-Templates.mov

 

My beef with Tabs-to-jump-twixt-styles is that I don't use styles in manuscript writing. Maybe many others do. At this point I gotta just shut up and let you have your voice on how the program works.

 

I am grateful for all the learning I've gleaned from this discussion. Thanks to everybody.

 

And thank you for the feedback.

 

-Steve

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Thoth, I'd love to do this. What's the link so I can read about the saga of development?

Hi Ron.

 

Yes, there is some pretty interesting stuff there but there is no link. The Beta Forum is limited to beta-testers since it's mostly bug reports and commentary on bug reports. Not exactly the sort of things the Galactic Storyist Conglomerate would want to make public. Right? My post was actually targeted at Steve, M and the other beta testers. I was reminding them that, as intuitive as Storyist is, "Kind of confused..." is not a unique situation.

 

BTW. The current beta is very stable. Steve and his coding gnomes have done their usual brilliant job.

- Thoth.

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Well, we can debate the Courier stuff a long while. It's only advantage, to quote one agent, is to give the fresh reader a feeling of moving through the story. It's harder to read (any fixed-width font is) and it's got little to do with estimating word count. When a writer reports their novel is 98,000 words, it's easy enough to check in a Word document. The only other metric you can rattle off is how many pages the MS is.

What I was told last year by the fiction editor I worked with, for what it's worth, is that if your novel is around 70,000 words, use Courier 12 pt. Publishing houses know how to work with it and how to construct a final page count based on 250 words per full page and 125 words per partial page. My buddy who is now submitting novel #5 always sets her text in Courier 12. The academic manuscripts I edit are coded in Courier 12 when they reach me, and if not, I set them that way immediately because that is the basis of my billing: $X/page in Courier 12 pt double-spaced.

 

However, the same editor also told me that if your novel comes out to more than 400 pages in Courier, use Times New Roman 12 pt. This alters the word count to 300 words per page, and in my experience reduces the number of printed pages by about 1/3.

 

Why do you do this? Because a novel of more than 400 pages has to ship to the publisher in two boxes, and publishers won't read anything that comes in two boxes (Leo Tolstoy is rolling in his grave). So fewer pages are better, even though the total number of words and the reading time are the same.

 

Is this true? I don't know. Makes no sense to me, but I'm not in a position to argue. I've also seen numerous agents request submissions in Times New Roman 12, so I think the standard is changing. In that case, of course, you should send what they ask for. Increasingly, too, agents and editors are accepting the word counts supplied by the author's word processor rather than the rougher per page estimates, so Courier plays a smaller role than it once did.

 

But Courier is as reasonable a place to start as any, right? Whatever font Steve picks, someone's going to want a different one. (Just don't pick Comic Sans or Ransom Note! :P)

 

Personally, I prefer the look of Times New Roman, which is why I created the template. (To install it, Ron, click on the link to download the file to your desktop [download the second version, which includes Thoth's edits], then drag it into ~/Library/Application Support/Storyist/Templates, where ~ stands for your home folder. If the templates folder doesn't exist, you can create it. Next time you start up Storyist, you should see Novel_Times in the window of available templates. It's just another Storyist file, and you can alter it as you like and resave it as a template. Again, you will find your altered version in the Templates folder.)

 

Courier is larger, so I tend to set the zoom to 200% when working in Times, but that's a function of eyesight and monitor size.

 

To access the beta posts, you have to be a beta tester, as Thoth notes.

Best,

Marguerite

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You also asked about exporting chapters. At the moment, there is no way to export an individual chapter (I think the feature's on Steve's list). I export the whole manuscript and keep only the part I want, because that best preserves the styles. The alternative is to select the chapter and copy/paste it into Word or Pages (both of which support styled text) or TextEdit (which doesn't).

 

You can export individual notes, characters, settings, etc. Results vary (the more text-based the better), but nothing goes missing except any associated images. You get a series of RTF files, one for each element that you export. Useful for moving character details from one file to another or just backing up your notes. (I also perform frequent backups of the entire story file, automatically each day and just before I wreak havoc on a given section.)

Best,

M

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Thanks Steve. Good screen cast on changing an existing template to a Times, 1-inch margin format. Wish I'd known where that was when I got started. Still wondering how Marguerite's template gets integrated. Do I just drop her file into the one of the Storyist folders?

 

(And yeah, there's been a significant shift in MS format expectations since 1998...)

 

Best,

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See my note above, repeated here:

 

To install it, Ron, click on the link to download the file to your desktop (download the second version, which includes Thoth's edits), then drag it into ~/Library/Application Support/Storyist/Templates, where ~ stands for your home folder. If the templates folder doesn't exist, you can create it. Next time you start up Storyist, you should see Novel_Times in the window of available templates. It's just another Storyist file, and you can alter it as you like and resave it as a template. Again, you will find your altered version in the Templates folder.

 

The same instructions appear in the Sharing forum itself.

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