Empowering the notebook with tags

[Steve E]

Does that mean a 1 and 1 can mate?

The Tralfamadorians policy is: Don't ask, don't tell. (There is a story going around about a 4281 and a 6765, both Fibonaccis, that is becoming legend. But that would be off topic, and very very dirty.)

 

We never did find out the question to which 42 is the answer, now did we. I feel gypped.

-Thoth.

 

BTW: Sooo. Any new thoughts about tag syntax?

[codemer]

BTW: Sooo. Any new thoughts about tag syntax?

 

Now that you mention it, there's one more issue I have with a lot of wikis. They all need support for aliases. It shouldn't be so hard to have "Falcon" and "Falcons" link to the same entry, or "Tom" and "Tom Jones" link to the same entry. You can get around this in most wikis with a link like [[Falcons|Falcon]] (or the reverse in Storyist), but what a waste of keystrokes.

 

IF

[Steve E]

Now that you mention it, there's one more issue I have with a lot of wikis. They all need support for aliases. It shouldn't be so hard to have "Falcon" and "Falcons" link to the same entry, or "Tom" and "Tom Jones" link to the same entry. You can get around this in most wikis with a link like [[Falcons|Falcon]] (or the reverse in Storyist), but what a waste of keystrokes.

Actually, your "but what a waste of keystrokes" comment is how I feel about most link implementations. It's so un-Mac-like. Steve's list-of-elements pop-up he uses for linking between sheets is more consistent but it won't work well for a long list of named tags. Maybe a two-dimension table with pop-up sub-tables?

 

-Thoth.

[codemer]

Maybe a two-dimension table with pop-up sub-tables?

 

Maybe it's just late and I haven't slept in a week, but, huh?

 

IF

[Steve E]

Maybe it's just late and I haven't slept in a week, but, huh?

Open a Character sheet. Click Character Development Point. Click Unassigned. Click Assign To Section. Select section from pop-up list. This creates a link to a Section sheet.

 

I would like to see a similar system for generalized linking. In short: You have a sheet (or something) and you create a link to it from another sheet by selecting from a long list or a short (2D) table (name x type, I suppose) of sheet names. This is how sheet names become tag names. (Again, I know this isn't what you asked for. You want something Wiki-like.)

 

Go to bed sleepy bunny beagle. Evil Alien Overladies await you in your dreams.

-Thoth.

[marguerite]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

The double brackets we currently use to make links are completely consistent with many other applications as well as the link "standard" but they are (again, forgive me) geeky and completely inconsistent with the feel of the rest of the program. Understand that I'm not saying they are hard to use. They just feel like they belong in a different kind of program. Do other users feel the same way?

typing>

-Thoth.

By the way, since I don't think anyone else responded directly to this comment, I actually don't have a problem with the double brackets, so long as the syntax itself is simple. If I can type [[character:Voldemort]] in the midst of my text rather than work through three or four menu commands to get the same effect, I will.

 

But it's the same principle as substituting keyboard commands for menu commands (or typing the formatting codes instead of selecting and clicking, as I just did for the bold text that follows); it works best for people who are already comfortable with the software. So I think Thoth is right that it is more typical of Storyist to have a clear tagging command in the menu system. I'd like to see that in addition to the double brackets, though, not instead of them.

Best,

Marguerite

[marguerite]

Thanks Isaac. And you know what? I rather like your tables. It definitely has more of a Storyist feel.

-Thoth.

I think the tables make for an elegant solution to the timeline problem (mentioned in other threads as a feature request). For character details, the current solution seems fine to me--the same, in fact, except for the borders.

M

[marguerite]

Actually, your "but what a waste of keystrokes" comment is how I feel about most link implementations. It's so un-Mac-like. Steve's list-of-elements pop-up he uses for linking to between sheets now is more consistent but it won't work well for a long list of named tags. Maybe a two-dimension table with pop-up sub-tables?

 

-Thoth.

Working my way through the thread, obviously. The list approach could work for tags, since you can alphabetize them. The problem is that weird tendency the list has to hold on to dead links forever (Untitled Plot Point 14 is still with me, are the four references to "Dinner with Ian," a section deleted from another story three versions ago). But once that's solved, it's a workable approach, especially if there were sublists for characters, plot points, etc., to cut down on the number of entries in a given list.

 

Pass the cookies, Calli. No Evil Alien Overmuffins here.

M

[astillac]

You know, I think I need to really dig into the Notebook feature of Storyist - I've stayed away from it because I don't know what to do or how to use it. Maybe I just didn't look at it long enough. I think it would help me think of ways to help this discussion.

 

Here Lady M, they're gluten-free. Chocolate chip or peanut butter?

- Calli

[marguerite]

You know, I think I need to really dig into the Notebook feature of Storyist - I've stayed away from it because I don't know what to do or how to use it. Maybe I just didn't look at it long enough. I think it would help me think of ways to help this discussion.

 

Here Lady M, they're gluten-free. Chocolate chip or peanut butter?

- Calli

Ooh, my favorites! Either one sounds great.

 

The Notebook is a great place to keep all that unstructured stuff that pops up during writing. I listed a ton of things I use it for elsewhere (can't be bothered to stop and search for it now, but the thread had something to do with Christina's help files). But let's say you're typing along in a Character Sheet, and you decide that the gorram fires are only good in winter. You could type [[gorram fires]] right there in the Notes section of the sheet, and Storyist creates a new note with that title. Click on the note and type "Gorram fires good only between October and March" and go back to your sheet. Then, when you vaguely recall having set some kind of limit, you can either click on the note or search the Notebook and there the reference will be. It's a great place to stow all kinds of unanswered questions, problems that crop up and need solutions, backstory for various events and characters, anything that spans more than one section, plot, character, or setting sheet but doesn't belong in the main window, etc.

 

Isaac and Thoth want to expand the current tagging scheme to make it more flexible and let you tag things more than once (in the example, you could tag one reference as gorram, fire, season, Planet X, Character Y—whatever). And Isaac prefers to do all his tagging in the Notebook, bypassing the specialized sheets. The rest of us aren't quite that adventurous.

 

Beyond that, they're discussing the mechanics—on which I have nothing to say except . So long as I understand the end results of their discussion, I'm happy.

 

Mmm, those chocolate chip cookies are good. More tea?

M

[Steve E]

Isaac and Thoth want to expand the current tagging scheme to make it more flexible and let you tag things more than once (in the example, you could tag one reference as gorram, fire, season, Planet X, Character Y—whatever). And Isaac prefers to do all his tagging in the Notebook, bypassing the specialized sheets. The rest of us aren't quite that adventurous.

I'd like to add that the tagging/linking system for notes is pretty good as it is. You can add double-bracket links to the manuscript text, Notebook sheets, and the notes portion of any sheet (such as Character sheets). These links (for example [[Evil Muffins]]) will point you to your Notebook note. And, as M said, if the note doesn't exist Storyist will create a blank one with that name. What's more, you can add an existing link so two or more links point to the same place, or edit it (option-click) so it points somewhere else (such as a Character sheet).

 

So what more could we greedy users possibly want? Basically, better tag management. Being able to see a listing of all tags/links, not just what they connect to, would be good.

 

How come you Ladies get cookies and the guys are stuck with these lousy muffins?

-Thoth.

[marguerite]

What's more, you can add an existing link so two or more links point to the same place, or edit it (option-click) so it points somewhere else (such as a Character sheet).

How come you Ladies get cookies and the guys are stuck with these lousy muffins?

-Thoth.

How do you make two or more links point to the same place or redirect them?

 

Tell us, and we'll send some cookies into orbit for you!

Marguerite

 

P.S. This is my 300th post, people! So much for proper use of company time....

[marguerite]

What's more, you can add an existing link so two or more links point to the same place, or edit it (option-click) so it points somewhere else (such as a Character sheet).

How come you Ladies get cookies and the guys are stuck with these lousy muffins?

-Thoth.

And my 301st, thanks to the server spinning its wheels.

[marguerite]

What's more, you can add an existing link so two or more links point to the same place, or edit it (option-click) so it points somewhere else (such as a Character sheet).

How come you Ladies get cookies and the guys are stuck with these lousy muffins?

-Thoth.

And my 302nd, ditto!

[Steve E]

How do you make two or more links point to the same place or redirect them?

Tell us, and we'll send some cookies into orbit for you!

Marguerite

Easy. Let's say you have a Notebook note called Blotto. In your text (or anywhere that accepts links) type [[blotto|Zip]], [[blotto|Zap]] and [[blotto|Zoop]] and you now have three links (i.e., Zip, Zap and Zoop) that will take you to your Blotto note. It's a little tricker linking outside the Notebook. You'll have to use Edit>Insert>Link from the menu and specifically choose the sheet you want (say, a Setting or a Character), otherwise Storyist will think you want a note by that name and create one.

 

To redirect a link, control-click on the link and select Edit Link from the pop-up. On the menu select the new destination for the link from the list of story elements. Then click Insert.

 

You know, with all this talk about tags and links, I hope Steve isn't getting the impression that we don't appreciate the fine job he has done with links so far. It's just that, well, we're greedy users and always want just a wee bit more. Sorry Steve.

 

Where're mah cookies, woman!

-Thoth.

 

P.S. This is my 300th post, people! So much for proper use of company time....

See Milestones, Lady M.

[Steve E]

And my 302nd, ditto!

Annoying. isn't it?

 

We seem to have flipped a page. Please see my previous post at the end of page 2.

[astillac]

I believe I get it now! The "[[blotto|Zip]], [[blotto|Zap]] and [[blotto|Zoop]]" actually helped, I think. Mulitple tags. Okay then. I don't understand the how, but I get the why. The how is for bigger, more technically inclined brains than mine.

 

Yes please, Lady M. Thank you. *jettisons cookies into space*

- Calli

[marguerite]

Where're mah cookies, woman!

-Thoth.

Thanks for the explanation. Perhaps if I type a few Zips, Zaps, and Zoops into my file the idea will begin to take hold. I'm severely link-challenged, as mentioned elsewhere, so this is all a foreign language to moi.

 

Calli sent the cookies—see her post. Hope the Evil Alien Overladies didn't swipe the lot. 'Fraid they like cookies as well as muffins.

 

Oh no, Evil Alien Overcookies!

 

Departing now with a tennis racquet to beat the Overladies away from the chocolate chips,

M

[Steve E]

I'm severely link-challenged, as mentioned elsewhere, so this is all a foreign language to moi.

IMHO the simplest way to start using links is with links to notes. Just type [[Muffins]] when the mood strikes you. The first time you do it Storyist will create a Note called Muffins. The next time you type [[Muffins]] you won't get a new note but you will get a second link. This alone is a pretty nifty feature. Then you can step up to link editing if you like.

 

Calli sent the cookie...

Yumm! Thank you both so much. I'm feeling cookie deprived.

 

Oh no, Evil Alien Overcookies!

Oh you scamp. Don't get me started. Overcookies! What sort of warped mind would ever think of such a thing?

 

Departing now with a tennis racquet to beat the Overladies away from the chocolate chips,

My hero,

-Thoth.

[marguerite]

IMHO the simplest way to start using links is with links to notes. Just type [[Muffins]] when the mood strikes you. The first time you do it Storyist will create a Note called Muffins. The next time you type [[Muffins]] you won't get a new note but you will get a second link. This alone is a pretty nifty feature. Then you can step up to link editing if you like.

 

Overcookies! What sort of warped mind would ever think of such a thing?

-Thoth.

Yes, I have mastered the simplest one link/one note level, although I probably need to test even the "second link to same note" concept. It was the Zips and Zoops that floored me. But I'm sure if I try a few test runs I'll get it, and I do appreciate your explanation.

 

Chastened (NOT! ) and grateful,

M

[astillac]

I showed Alex what we were talking about and he said "Oh, they need a disambiguation page!" I don't know what he's talking about, but it sounded good.

 

*jettisons more cookies to distract the EOL*

- Calli

[codemer]

Where're mah cookies, woman!

 

On a completely unrelated note: Are you single?

 

"Oh, they need a disambiguation page!"

 

Why yes, obviously, we need a disambiguation thingy. I don't know why I didn't just mention that in the first place. I mean, everyone knows what a disambiguwhatchamathingy is.

 

I wonder if it's a good time for my other suggestions about linking. This thread has been so fun...

 

IF

[Steve]

Follow Thoth and Isaac to the Writers' Lounge for continuing discussion about bunny ears on puppies.

[Steve E]

I wonder if it's a good time for my other suggestions about linking?

Apparently so. Suggest away. I'm all ears.

 

We get the hint, Steve, but it probably won't stick. We Storyist Forum Contributors are a hearty, independent lot.

-Thoth.