Section Sheets and Plot Points

[marguerite]

I'm curious about other people's experiences with Section Sheets and Plot Points. Do you really make use of them? What do you do with them?

 

Every project, I swear I'm going to enter information in them, and I never do. I use the character sheets and the notebook all the time, but when I sit down and try linking section sheets, character development points, and plot points, my brain glazes over and I head back into writing.

 

One issue for me is that I'd like to be able to link a plot point to more than one section ("Add Section" in the contextual menu) and I'd like to be able to assign plot points to sections via a contextual menu as well (the same way you can assign sections to plot points). Both features would make the sheets more intuitive for me. (I've posted these requests in the Feature Request section before.)

 

I appreciate the idea of the sheets: it's useful to think "What is my conflict in this section?" for example. So I'm not suggesting eliminating them (I can always hide their display).

 

But I do wonder how other people deal with them.

 

Do they work better for plotters than pantsers? (for a discussion of these terms, see here).

Do they fit screenplays better than novels?

 

What's your experience?

Best,

Marguerite

[astillac]

They must work better for plotters. I try and try, but I'm in the same boat as you; I can't wrap my brain around 'em. I think my problem is, as a pantser, I rarely know more than a few major plot points. I know how to get from point A to F, but points B, C, D, and E are all up for grabs, and they arise as the story grows.

 

So what I do is look longingly at the section sheets and plot points, then open up a Note, call it "General Plot" and type something like this:

Tristan meets Damien.

T meets Joe.

T is attacked by the dismantlers.

T Meets Kerri.

J asks Maria to investigate T.

 

(That's straight from my current project, actually. Fascinating, I know.) Each sentence then becomes a section. As I finish each section, I strike-through the text, so I always know where I am. Inevitably, someone grew up with the mob princess and I have to add a few more sections, but it's easier (to me) than wrangling with separate sheets.

[Steve E]

I agree with you both. Section sheets and Plot points are more for plotters than for pantsers. I plot only in broad strokes so it works best for me to use the notebook. One or two pages are good enough to list approximately what I want to do (if I know at that point) and then add a few lines of detail and dialog under each point. But I need to see it all at once, so the plotting sheets are (for now) pointless. I did try using them once but I had to make so many changes as I went along that the Plot sheets just slowed me down.

 

Section sheets are another matter. I fill those in well after I complete a section. For me they're like notes. They're a way of remembering what I did in that section for future reference. Frankly, for us "broad stroke" folk a Chapter note would be more useful. I made a request* but until we get Chapter notes I use the first Section note as a Chapter note. It's inelegant, I know.

 

So there you have it.

-Thoth.

 

*To see my Story Sheet and Chapter Sheet request, CLICK HERE. Note it was "officially noted" by Steve about a year ago. So I guess we know what he thinks of it. (Ah still ain't got no bookmarks.)

[marguerite]

I agree with you both. Section sheets and Plot points are more for plotters than for pantsers. I plot only in broad strokes so it works best for me to use the notebook. One or two pages are good enough to list approximately what I want to do (if I know at that point) and then add a few lines of detail and dialog under each point. But I need to see it all at once, so the plotting sheets are (for now) pointless. I did try using them once but I had to make so many changes as I went along that the Plot sheets just slowed me down.

 

Section sheets are another matter. I fill those in well after I complete a section. For me they're like notes. They're a way of remembering what I did in that section for future reference. Frankly, for us "broad stroke" folk a Chapter note would be more useful. I made a request* but until we get Chapter notes I use the first Section note as a Chapter note. It's inelegant, I know.

 

So there you have it.

-Thoth.

 

*To see my Story Sheet and Chapter Sheet request, CLICK HERE. Note it was "officially noted" by Steve about a year ago. So I guess we know what he thinks of it. (Ah still ain't got no bookmarks.)

I do like the three-act structure, which displays the 12 stages of the Hero's Journey along the side of the Project Pane. That's the main thing I use the Plot Point structure for, just to glance at and think "Who are the Threshold Guardians?" or "Did I leave out a crucial step?" It's when I start filling in the sheets and try to link, say, "Ordinary World" to a section (hero's ordinary world? heroine's ordinary world? the ordinary world they share?) that I start to think I could spend my time better on other things. And yes, I know Steve created a template just for me that was supposed to allow multiple versions of the Ordinary World (or whatever), but it still feels like filling in the blanks instead of writing.

 

My issue with the Section Sheets is the same. I can't fill them in before the fact, because I don't know what should be there, so instead I write a bunch of notes on where I want things to go, write the text that takes them there, and head off on to something else. And after I've done the writing, filling in the Section Sheets feels like doing homework (this is not a criticism of others' ways of working!).

 

I love being able to drag the sections around when I decide the order's not right, though.

 

Are there any plotters in our group who actually fill the sheets out in advance?

Best,

M

[Steve E]

I agree M. I do like the structure displayed for me but, like you, I see it more as a reference. A way to check if I've forgotten anything. In that sense I would very much like to see more such templates: Horror, Fairy Tale, etcetera.

 

I too feel that filling out the sheets is like homework. But, in terms of note-taking, it is necessary homework. As a pantser I feel nothing but annoyance at fill-in-the-blank type writing. This is not to say people don't buy this sort of thing. There are a lot of successful series out there containing books that could be interchangeable. If that's your thing, fine. It's just not mine.

 

-Thoth.

[astillac]

I wish I could highlight something I've written and say "THIS is a plot point!" or something like that. "THIS is important!" In my ideal world, Storyist would keep track of all of those for me. That would be handy.

[Steve E]

I wish I could highlight something I've written and say "THIS is a plot point!" or something like that. "THIS is important!" In my ideal world, Storyist would keep track of all of those for me. That would be handy.

Sounds like a Feature Request. Write it up Ninja Girl.

[akyi]

I must be a plotter...

 

I do use the plot points and section sheets... though my current project is the first time ever I have used the plot points.

 

There was another application - a database - that I used for tracking the myriad of story ideas that float through my head. It has this cute and Campbellesque series of questions it makes you answer to iron out the overall structure of your story. I took that concept and created my own Storyist template with many of those questions pre-made out as plot points.

 

I then use the section sheets to flesh out the story to a decent degree. Oddly enough, I tend to not use the character section at all preferring to use other tools.

 

Now if I could just find a way to be able to show the manuscript AND the section sheets side by side... I would be in heaven.

[astillac]

This thread is making all sorts of feature requests, isn't it? Hmm...

[marguerite]

This thread is making all sorts of feature requests, isn't it? Hmm...

As a result of our discussion, I am considering setting up Section Sheets for my new project as a kind of outline: Introduce Girl, Introduce Boy, They Fight, etc., and displaying them in the Project Pane as a way of organizing my thoughts.

 

Will let you know how it goes!

Best,

M

[marguerite]

As a result of our discussion, I am considering setting up Section Sheets for my new project as a kind of outline: Introduce Girl, Introduce Boy, They Fight, etc., and displaying them in the Project Pane as a way of organizing my thoughts.

 

Will let you know how it goes!

Best,

M

Update: I have been using the section sheets for the new book and am finding them useful. I started putting little JPEGs of the appropriate setting in the image wells, so I could see at a glance where the scene was taking place. I also write the section, then fill out the sheet with summary, POV, conflict, etc. (one way of making sure there is a conflict!). In many cases, I encapsulate scenes in a paragraph or two in the manuscript before writing the action and dialogue, so I've begun restyling those paragraphs as character sheet and moving them to the notes portion of the section sheet before starting on the text.

 

I think part of my reluctance to engage with the section sheets was that until now I was primarily revising complete drafts, which made the section sheets both daunting (165 blank sheets!) and superfluous (I already knew what each section contained). But this new project is entirely in Storyist, so I'm dealing with one sheet at a time, or at most 2-3, which is much easier to cope with. (Thoth, thanks for the tip.)

 

Still haven't figured out the plot sheets and am lazy about character development points, but perhaps those are most useful in the revisions phase.

 

This does raise a question, though: since I'm using the same JPEG in several places (character or setting sheet and one or more section sheets), is there a way to tell Storyist to create multiple links to the same image, or does it reimport the image each time? I'm thinking here of file size, which is already 800 KB with only 60 or so pages of text.

Best,

Marguerite

[marguerite]

Update: I have been using the section sheets for the new book and am finding them useful. I started putting little JPEGs of the appropriate setting in the image wells, so I could see at a glance where the scene was taking place. I also write the section, then fill out the sheet with summary, POV, conflict, etc. (one way of making sure there is a conflict!). In many cases, I encapsulate scenes in a paragraph or two in the manuscript before writing the action and dialogue, so I've begun restyling those paragraphs as character sheet and moving them to the notes portion of the section sheet before starting on the text.

 

I think part of my reluctance to engage with the section sheets was that until now I was primarily revising complete drafts, which made the section sheets both daunting (165 blank sheets!) and superfluous (I already knew what each section contained). But this new project is entirely in Storyist, so I'm dealing with one sheet at a time, or at most 2-3, which is much easier to cope with. (Thoth, thanks for the tip.)

 

Still haven't figured out the plot sheets and am lazy about character development points, but perhaps those are most useful in the revisions phase.

 

This does raise a question, though: since I'm using the same JPEG in several places (character or setting sheet and one or more section sheets), is there a way to tell Storyist to create multiple links to the same image, or does it reimport the image each time? I'm thinking here of file size, which is already 800 KB with only 60 or so pages of text.

Best,

Marguerite

Think I may have found a solution to the plot points problem that works for me. I will upload a template to the Sharing section that shows my solution.

 

The "aha" moment was realizing I could stash one plot thread under another, so I now have Act I, Act II, Act III, and Romantic Plot Thread at the top level, then folders for each stage of the hero's journey (Ordinary World, etc.) assigned to the appropriate act. Then I can create Plot Points as needed to track the progress of Hero and Heroine and assign those to individual sections. The romantic plot thread also has subplot threads for boy meets girl and so on, since I tend to go on about these stages for some time. Those folders may not meet anyone else's needs (or even mine, once I actually start using them), but they're easily changed.

 

Hope this is useful.

Marguerite

[Steve E]

I looked over the template and, basically, I like it. The "problem" is that for pantsers any initial structure will be torn to shreds as the plot advances. Still, as a starting point, not too shabby, M.

 

I'd be curious to hear how this works out for you.

-Thoth.

[marguerite]

I looked over the template and, basically, I like it. The "problem" is that for pantsers any initial structure will be torn to shreds as the plot advances. Still, as a starting point, not too shabby, M.

 

I'd be curious to hear how this works out for you.

-Thoth.

Yes, I'll let you know. As a pantser I haven't yet done more than create the folders, glance at them as I write, and think, "Gee, I should do something with those!"

 

But what I like about this structure is that I can go back and fill in the plot points I need after the writing is done. The 20 or so folders and subfolders remain in place, as reminders of the stages in the journey.

 

That is, I can imagine plotters figuring out the points in advance, but for me to do that would be nothing more than a procrastination technique. As soon as I began to write, I'd have to rip out the structure and start over. But just as I'm now filling in the section sheets once a section is in rough draft (sometimes I can at least get the POV, setting, major conflict, and some kind of summary in there ahead of time), I can imagine writing a chapter and then going through the sections to add plot points that illustrate "Tests and Trials" or whatever.

 

We'll see!

M

[marguerite]

Yes, I'll let you know. As a pantser I haven't yet done more than create the folders, glance at them as I write, and think, "Gee, I should do something with those!"

 

But what I like about this structure is that I can go back and fill in the plot points I need after the writing is done. The 20 or so folders and subfolders remain in place, as reminders of the stages in the journey.

 

That is, I can imagine plotters figuring out the points in advance, but for me to do that would be nothing more than a procrastination technique. As soon as I began to write, I'd have to rip out the structure and start over. But just as I'm now filling in the section sheets once a section is in rough draft (sometimes I can at least get the POV, setting, major conflict, and some kind of summary in there ahead of time), I can imagine writing a chapter and then going through the sections to add plot points that illustrate "Tests and Trials" or whatever.

 

We'll see!

M

Progress report: I did create Plot Points for my first three chapters yesterday and realized that I could color-code them, thus tracking various subplots throughout the story. So now I will use them more extensively.

 

I will probably also set up a Plot Thread called Unassigned, so I can create Plot Points for scenes I know need to be in the book but haven't formulated clearly enough to assign to stages of the Hero's Journey.

 

A screen shot of the results is below. just in case anyone else finds it useful.

 

 

BTW, I wanted to thank Steve for something that I, at least, have been taking for granted because it's so intuitive and helpful: if you click on a Plot Thread or Plot Point and then the plus sign at the bottom of the window, Storyist automatically gives you a new Plot Point; if you click on a Section and the plus sign, it gives you a new Section Sheet. The same holds for Settings, Characters, and even Sections in the Manuscript. A small thing, but it saves oodles of mousing around and choosing items from menus (especially important since the pre-programmed key combinations don't seem to work in Tiger and some of us no longer have the little gray cells to remember all those combinations anyway).

 

So thanks, Steve!

Marguerite

[Steve]

I should point out that color coding of index cards is an (*ahem*) unreleased feature that the beta team is testing. Membership does have its privileges.

 

-Steve

[marguerite]

I should point out that color coding of index cards is an (*ahem*) unreleased feature that the beta team is testing. Membership does have its privileges.

 

-Steve

Oops! Sorry for spilling the beans.

 

As atonement, let me mention that there are many other neat unreleased features available to beta testers but not (yet) to the rest of youse.

I could tell you what they are, but then I'd have to ... you know.

Best,

M