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pjl

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Orren, you are sooooo right. I credit comics for building my vocabulary as a youth. And when was the last time you heard the word "youth" in the sense of "child"? I also learned how to build an Evil Weather Machine. But my prominent self-destruct button blew up my volcano headquarters when a minion mistook it for a coaster. (Sigh. Remember coasters? You don't even see them in restaurants anymore.)

 

Looking for a wood frame cabin on Lake Koikeroinen (less than 200 km from Helsinki).

- Thoth

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My guess, only, based on myself being told that, in my Scarlet Pimpernel novel, I could not expect readers to know--or, apparently, find out--what a folly (in the sense of a small garden structure) was, let alone what leaders and wheelers might be (carriage horses, for those who don't want to look it up). Since I learned those words from reading novels,

There's a Gothic "Castle" folly, in Van Cortlandt Park, where I used to hang out as a teen. So I knew the word, in that sense, early on. My father had visited The Folies Bergère, in Paris. So he probably had a different sense of the word "folly". Today, if the kids know the word at all, they probably know it in the sense of "foolishness". A big rich word grown small and poor.

 

I found that rather bizarre, but I have seen in numerous writing manuals that an author should aim for a general secondary-school vocabulary.

Yes, but have you seen SAT prep-books lately? The vocabulary list is pathetic. In another generation it will be whittled down to grunts and moans.

 

Of course, I learned those words at 14, but it seems that not everyone does.... ;)

I learned all my dirty words by 14. Unfortunately they keep coming up with new ones. And they are so uninspiring--I actually prefer Battlestar Galactica's "frak" to that-word-we-can't-say-on-this-forum. (I'm being so good I deserve a cookie.)

 

So does vocabulary level matter to anybody's book selection process? (Harry Potter anyone?)

- Thoth.

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So does vocabulary level matter to anybody's book selection process? (Harry Potter anyone?)

 

I find vocabulary not as important as how the words are strung together. Big words do not a compelling story make.

 

Lately, I've noticed a lot of 3+ syllable words in music on the radio. Maybe there is hope for the next generation.

 

IF

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I find vocabulary not as important as how the words are strung together. Big words do not a compelling story make.

 

Lately, I've noticed a lot of 3+ syllable words in music on the radio. Maybe there is hope for the next generation.

 

IF

Isaac is right, of course. Big words for the sake of big words are no more effective than anything else stuck in "for the sake of it." And personally, I thought ichneumon was pushing it. Mongoose would have worked just as well (it's not like the ichneumon was a major character).

 

But I think there's a difference between how readers read and what (modern, commercial) publishers think they can sell. My favorite book when I was 8 was J.M. Barrie's Peter Pan. Did I understand every word? Of course not. Did I look up the ones I didn't know? Not usually. If I could guess what they meant from the context, I just kept on reading and didn't worry about it. Did it detract from my enjoyment of the book? Not for one minute.

 

Many years later, I watched my son do the same thing with Brian Jacques's Redwall novels (which were originally sold as adult SF, then YA, and have now percolated down, in truncated form, to the preschool set--he read the originals). Again, he didn't know all the vocabulary, but he didn't care, either. He loved the stories, and that was enough.

 

Words carry emotions: you don't have to know exactly what Mechlin lace is to guess at the attitude toward life of the person wearing it. A "Grecian folly" evokes a different feel from "yon shed in the garden." And how else would you differentiate the horses in describing a coach and four: front horses and back horses? Not nearly as "you are there" as leaders and wheelers, is it?

 

But one can go too far. To paraphrase something I heard in an NPR interview yesterday (David Mitchell, author of The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet), when the servant asks, "Will you have the pig tallow candles tonight, m'lord, or the sperm whale oil lantern?" the readers' main impulse is to laugh. Kind of kills the mood. :D

Best,

M

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But one can go too far. To paraphrase something I heard in an NPR interview yesterday (David Mitchell, author of The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet), when the servant asks, "Will you have the pig tallow candles tonight, m'lord, or the sperm whale oil lantern?" the readers' main impulse is to laugh. Kind of kills the mood. :D

 

I remember having my junior high moment (I was in my twenties) reading Moby Dick and coming to the (short) chapter where the only action is the crew sitting around squeezing lumps out of whale sperm. I'm guessing it was trying to show the growing brotherhood of the crew and all of that, which I'm also guessing came across differently in the 1890s than in the 1990s. I'm afraid the greater meaning was lost on my immature self (and the immature selves of all the other males in class) :)

 

Orren

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Lately, I've noticed a lot of 3+ syllable words in music on the radio. Maybe there is hope for the next generation.

I'm with you, beagle-bunny. Here's hoping.

 

But one can go too far. ...

It can be a difficult line to walk—judging the effects of language on mood. I think most authors try to play it safe to please their publishers. But there are always those magnificent exceptions. Remember Allen Ginsberg? Here's a taste:

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,

dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,

angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,

who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed high sat up smoking in the supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the tops of cities contemplating jazz

- An excerpt from "HOWL"

But as for putting in big words just to put in big words, I say "why not?", it can be fun. Dr. Seuss knew that big words are often funny and gave the reader a sense of accomplishment to have struggled through them and (perhaps) figure them out through their context and onomatopoeia*.

 

... and coming to the (short) chapter where the only action is the crew sitting around squeezing lumps out of whale sperm.

Whale semen is lumpy? I wonder how the lady whales feel about that?

 

-Thoth

* One of my favorite six-syllable words.

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Looking for a wood frame cabin on Lake Koikeroinen (less than 200 km from Helsinki).

- Thoth

Aah, Helsinki. A beautiful, beautiful town, especially if you see it right after leaving Brezhnev-era Leningrad. No surprise to me that Finland is #1, although there is that teensy, weensy problem of no sun to speak of from November to February.... :D

M

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Aah, Helsinki. A beautiful, beautiful town, especially if you see it right after leaving Brezhnev-era Leningrad. No surprise to me that Finland is #1, although there is that teensy, weensy problem of no sun to speak of from November to February.... :D

M

And yet the Fins always look so tan.

T'is a puzzlement.

- Thoth.

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  • 1 year later...

Maybe. But he's a writer. Some of us read him. There's room on this thread for him to hang.

- Thoth

 

So let me reignite this old thread, just to fume a little bit about Mr. Orson "My middle name is intolerance and hate but I spell it S-C-O-T-T" Card. http://www.orrenmerton.com/site/2012/05/07/tolerance-gay-marriage-and-a-famous-sci-fi-author/

 

BTW, I'm currently reading old Robert E. Howard Conan stories. :)

 

Orren

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Yes, this is a great thread. Thanks for reviving it, Orren.

 

I am currently re-reading Connie Willis's The Doomsday Book, which I still love on the third go-round, even though the modern plot thread is less interesting than the medieval one. I never got on the Orson Scott Card bandwagon, so the only book of his I've read (other than his Characters and Viewpoint, which is pretty good as writing books go) is Enchantment. As Russian history/literature, it's more of a hoot than a contribution, but at least he was less crazy then than he appears to have become since. I thought Enchantment was kind of fun.

Best,

M

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I don't have much to say about Card. I generally don't delve into the personal opinions of the authors of the books I read. Was it a good book? Was it a bad book? That's all that matters to me.

 

By the way, Orren, I liked the previous article too: Whedon Assembles the Avengers Right. I saw the movie on Friday and was a touch disappointed not to see Doctor Strange (who was part of the original team), or Ant Man and The Wasp (who came later but before the Black Widow). Perhaps they're being saved for later.

 

Right now I'm reading Prey by Michael Crichton (1942-2008). His last book. I was going to read Mico alleged to be his last book, but even though Crichton name is above the title he had only written an introduction and an outline before he died. The book is really written by Richard Preston (who is no Michael Crichton).

 

Happy reading.

-Thoth

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By the way, Orren, I liked the previous article too: Whedon Assembles the Avengers Right. I saw the movie on Friday and was a touch disappointed not to see Doctor Strange (who was part of the original team), or Ant Man and The Wasp (who came later but before the Black Widow). Perhaps they're being saved for later.

 

Thanks! I knew that none of the above would be appearing due to the marketing. I'd love to see a film, or future Avengers team-up, with Doctor Strange, a favorite of mine too.

 

And Wasp was on the original team, according to Wikipedia:

"Labeled "Earth's Mightiest Heroes", the Avengers originally consisted of Iron Man (Tony Stark), Ant-Man (Dr. Henry Pym), Wasp (Janet Van Dyne), Thor, and the Hulk (Bruce Banner). The original Captain Americawas discovered by the team in issue #4, trapped in ice, and he joined the group when they revived him. The rotating roster has become a hallmark of the team, although one theme remains consistent: the Avengers fight "the foes no single superhero can withstand". The team, famous for its battle cry of "Avengers Assemble!", has featured humans, mutants, robots, gods, aliens, supernatural beings, and even former villains."

 

There were talks for a while of Morena Baccarin playing Wasp, and Joss Whedon told people at Comic Con 2011 that if they run into Nathan Fillion to ask him to do his Ant-Man audition. But I'm guessing Marvel wanted to focus on the characters they'd put in previous movies.

 

And speaking of the book I'm reading (Conan of Cimmeria) and movies, I very much enjoyed the first Conan movie with Schwarzenegger but the second movie and the recent movie were all cheesy crap. Robert E. Howard's Conan is not a mindless thug or simple killing machine, he's clever and superstitious and cunning and was actually a *good* king, who grew into the job, caring about his people and earning their loyalty. I'd love to see a movie about that Conan, not a simple blood-and-skin flick.

 

Orren

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Robert E. Howard's Conan is not a mindless thug or simple killing machine, he's clever and superstitious and cunning and was actually a *good* king, who grew into the job, caring about his people and earning their loyalty. I'd love to see a movie about that Conan, not a simple blood-and-skin flick.

 

Orren

I do not remember this Conan from any of Ah-nold's versions. Sounds interesting. ;)

M

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I do not remember this Conan from any of Ah-nold's versions. Sounds interesting. ;)

M

 

Conan The Barbarian (1982), Conan espousing his philosophy:

"Conan, what is best in life?"

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."

 

"Queen of the Black Coast" (1934) by Robert E Howard, Conan espousing his philosophy:

"Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content."

 

As you can see, Howard's Conan may be a barbarian, but he's definitely not a fool. Really, the original Conan is quite good pulp fantasy in the finest sense.

 

Orren

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  • 1 month later...

I'm just finishing up Fifty Shades of Grey by E.L. James (April 3, 2012). Yes, I know it's "mommy porn" but there was so much hype about the book that I decided to read it and decide for myself. It's book one of a trilogy. I won't be reading the other two.

 

With great anticipation I will soon be starting The Not Exactly Scarlet Pimpernel by C. P. Lesley (Jun 5, 2012). Lesley is actually the forum's own Marguerite. Or is it the other way around?

 

M, the book arrived from Amazon via UPS just 30 minutes ago. :)

-Thoth

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That's gonna be quite a mental shift. Hope you don't suffer from whiplash! ;)

 

Does Fifty Shades of Grey have any redeeming value? It sounds totally unappealing to me. Mommy porn is one thing, but that enough women are fantasizing about bondage and discipline to put the series at the top of the bestseller list strikes me as more than a little disturbing. Give me sparkly vampires any day.

M

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I'm just finishing up Fifty Shades of Grey by E.L. James (April 3, 2012). Yes, I know it's "mommy porn" but there was so much hype about the book that I decided to read it and decide for myself.

 

I guess every generation needs its "9 1/2 weeks."

 

The concept of "mommy porn" is silly to me. I certainly don't know or understand women better than any other man on the planet, but in my limited experience I've found that women like sex and "porn porn" as much as anyone else. But then, I guess it's more a marketing concept than anything else, right?

 

Orren

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That's gonna be quite a mental shift. Hope you don't suffer from whiplash! ;)

I'm actually looking for a mental shift. So, no worries.

 

Does Fifty Shades of Grey have any redeeming value?

That would depend on how you feel about B&D. Personally, it wasn't worth wading through (IMHO) too many instances of very bad prose to get to the porn. Although I don't think it's completely fair to call it "porn" since I find it more R-rated than X-rated, I can see how it could titillate those new to the genre. (I'm expecting the movie soon.)

 

It sounds totally unappealing to me. Mommy porn is one thing, but that enough women are fantasizing about bondage and discipline to put the series at the top of the bestseller list strikes me as more than a little disturbing. Give me sparkly vampires any day.

I know what you mean. But Fifty Shades was all over the media, subject to both abject fawning and biting criticism. It was the media that raised the ridiculous question of whether women really want to be dominated by their men (I'm told that the answer is "sometimes but never in public"), not the author. Frankly, I think that the book simply lucked out. May we all get this kind of luck.

 

Bring on the sparkly vampires!

-Thoth

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...

But then, I guess it's more a marketing concept than anything else, right?

...

I don't think it was in any way deliberate on the author's part. I think the media, having grown bored with politics and terrorism, was just looking for something different to obsess about and this book was just at the right place at the right time. But I think the sales numbers might have been boosted by people like me who just wanted to see if there was anything to all the hype. There isn't.

 

As for "mommy porn", my understanding of the term is that it refers to the kinds of sexy stories bought and read by stay-at-home-moms: more "bodice rippers" than BDSM novels. But it takes all kinds...

 

-Thoth

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  • 1 month later...

Hi. I'm in the mood for some high-end noveling and decided to re-read two James Joyce novels, Ulysses & Finnegans Wake (what one does for freeform daytime narration the other does for the night). (I'm convinced that Joyce is the ultimate Pantser.) Both are hefty volumes so I expect to be at this for a while. By then I should be in the perfect mood for Buffy The Vampire Slayer Season 9 Volume 1: Freefall. - Thoth

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