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codemer

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In fact, the time travel SF angle might be an advantage to the round robin approach. If you had the protagonist leap into various characters throughout time in a first person POV, you may be able to compensate for some of the differences in the writing styles between the authors. As there would be in fact different characters, they would naturally speak, act and view things through different sets of eyes.

 

carve

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In fact, the time travel SF angle might be an advantage to the round robin approach. If you had the protagonist leap into various characters throughout time in a first person POV, you may be able to compensate for some of the differences in the writing styles between the authors. As there would be in fact different characters, they would naturally speak, act and view things through different sets of eyes.

 

carve

I like this idea. I don't think we were planning anything as disciplined as 50,000 words in 30 days. Rather the idea was that having individually (not including PJL, who seems to be a veritable writing machine, and perhaps Steve) failed to produce anything close to a novel during NaNoWriMo, we would try again as a kollektiv. Exact dimensions TBD, or so I understood the project.

 

Kudos to Callista, who proposed the idea and sent the reminder, and Thoth, for pushing us to start defining the parameters, and Carve, for raising the question of length/format.

 

Here's a thought. Suppose we were to decide, as a group, who the characters would be and what time periods each of them would operate in and then divide them up? I'm imagining a set of "time operatives," each of whom would be charged with stopping a particular agent of the antagonist, who would be, perhaps, an organization along the lines of THRUSH, SPECTRE, etc., aiming for global/intergalactic domination by changing history. If we agreed on the general goal, periods, characters, etc., we could write the initial chapters simultaneously as first-person narratives, then see what we'd need to do to bring them all together in a denouement.

 

If so, I'll take 16th-century Russia and Irina, a feminist female agent trying to break out of the local equivalent of purdah to confront her personal bad guy, who will have to be a close family member of her 16th-century persona if she's even to get a chance to talk to him. Unless "he" turns out to be her mother-in-law--I see some interesting plot twists there. :(

 

Thoughts? Modifications?

Lady M.

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I like this idea. I don't think we were planning anything as disciplined as 50,000 words in 30 days. Rather the idea was that having individually (not including PJL, who seems to be a veritable writing machine, and perhaps Steve) failed to produce anything close to a novel during NaNoWriMo, we would try again as a kollektiv. Exact dimensions TBD, or so I understood the project.

 

I say we go for it. I realize I'm the new kid on the block, but it seems that we are at the point that we need to find out how many of us are willing to sign up for such a challenging, intriguing, psychotic project. To me a complete novel is the goal, because, well that would just be cool. Since 50,000 is the magic number, then once we have a list of participants we can start fleshing things out, and dividing up pages, chapters and eras in time. But unless the calendar on the four computers on my desk are wrong, the race starts in five days from now, which is not much time to come up with a group outline.

 

carve

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I say we go for it. I realize I'm the new kid on the block, but it seems that we are at the point that we need to find out how many of us are willing to sign up for such a challenging, intriguing, psychotic project. To me a complete novel is the goal, because, well that would just be cool. Since 50,000 is the magic number, then once we have a list of participants we can start fleshing things out, and dividing up pages, chapters and eras in time. But unless the calendar on the four computers on my desk are wrong, the race starts in five days from now, which is not much time to come up with a group outline.

 

carve

I think a lot of the regulars must be away for the holidays, as there are several people who would normally have chimed in by now. We had at least 5 who were interested, plus yourself, so if we divided the project into chapters and wrote simultaneously, 50,000 words in 30 days is extremely doable, less than 10,000 words per person.

 

I'm imagining something along these lines:

We create a .story file that all of us can share and post it somewhere on the boards. It would have a Character Group, Settings Group, and perhaps Notes Group for each author, and the individuals involved would take responsibility for setting up their own characters, settings, etc., within that file. The group would have to agree on an antagonist and general plot parameters, including any shared characters or settings (perhaps placed in groups of their own). But that could also be an ongoing process, of the "you know, I think we need a central office for this bunch" or "I just created a lab--anyone have a use for it?" variety.

 

Let's use my proposed agent as an example. I write several sections for her and name them Irina1, Irina2, etc. When they seem reasonably near completion, I copy them into the .story file as a chapter called Irina. Another author might focus on an agent named Pedro, so his sections would be Pedro1, Pedro2, and so on. Eventually we can weave the sections together, so that instead of reading Irina's entire story, then Pedro's, people could follow all 6-8 agents as they progress.

 

That would speed things up considerably, and we could save the round robin part for the introduction and conclusion, where everything has to pull together in some coherent way.

 

After thinking about it, I'd also suggest writing in a tight 3rd person narrative, rather than 1st, since that gives maximum flexibility in case someone needs to incorporate another character's POV.

 

But all this assumes that the group is amenable!

Marguerite

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I think a lot of the regulars must be away for the holidays, as there are several people who would normally have chimed in by now.

 

It is pretty quiet here from what I've noticed in the short time I've been around. As each day goes by, I just see us coming closer to the start date. It would be nice to have a solid head count, a buy in from everyone and a firm plan. I don't have any issues with the approach you laid out Marguerite.

 

carve

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It is pretty quiet here from what I've noticed in the short time I've been around.

It's the Holidays. :(

As each day goes by, I just see us coming closer to the start date.

It's probably a good thing to have a start date and a target word count, but collaboration means cooperation (and flexibility).

It would be nice to have a solid head count, a buy in from everyone and a firm plan.

Agreed. So that's Carve, Marguerite and Thoth (yours truly) so far. Steve's probably too busy with Storyist upgrades (and other such moneymaking nonsense) and Isaac is going to be very busy acclimating to his new job environment. But I hope I'm wrong. Callista? PJL? In or out? (No pressure. :) )

I don't have any issues with the approach you laid out Marguerite.

Agreed. In fact, I can envision some central body (scientific? mystical?) looking in on the agent from time to time, in each chapter, tying them together with their dialogue. Perhaps each chapter can end with a clue (a la The da Vinci code) that causes these overseers to bounce the agent to another place and time. Perhaps he/she doesn't even know he/she is an agent. (Is this beginning to sound too much like Quantum Leap?)

 

Okay. Progress. Slow, but definitely progress.

-Thoth

 

Oops. Almost forgot. I'll take Roswell, NM, 1947. I have this crazy idea about how to work in a 12-year-old Elvis.

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Marguerite

I'll take 16th-century Russia and Irina, a feminist female agent trying to break out of the local equivalent of purdah to confront her personal bad guy, who will have to be a close family member of her 16th-century persona if she's even to get a chance to talk to him. Unless "he" turns out to be her mother-in-law--I see some interesting plot twists there.

 

Thoth

Oops. Almost forgot. I'll take Roswell, NM, 1947. I have this crazy idea about how to work in a 12-year-old Elvis.

 

So, that leaves me like, last week, in my back yard, as a squirrel digging for nuts in the snow?

 

carve

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So, that leaves me like, last week, in my back yard, as a squirrel digging for nuts in the snow?

 

Perfect. There's all kinds of possibilities for Furry Fiction. And an animal perspective for our agent could be very refreshing. (I am so going to put pre-teen Elvis on a UFO. The kidnapping aliens will be dressed in blue suede and...I probably shouldn't give too much away just now. Hey, this is comedy, right? Or is it?) But if you're not serious about the squirrel please say so.

 

Looking more and more interesting.

-Thoth.

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It's probably a good thing to have a start date and a target word count, but collaboration means cooperation (and flexibility).

Yes, the original idea was not time-bound; we were just going to work on a group novel. So if it takes us till Jan. 15 to work out the details and until the end of Feb. to produce something, I don't think the group will lose anything. I still think there are benefits to having us write chapters simultaneously, though. Since the characters and style will be quite individual anyway, all we need is an agreed-upon group outline, roughly defined to keep people from wiping out other authors' inventions (in our evolving plan, vampires could morph into milquetoasts and vice versa without stepping on anyone's toes).

Agreed. So that's Carve, Marguerite and Thoth (yours truly) so far. Steve's probably too busy with Storyist upgrades (and other such moneymaking nonsense) and Isaac is going to be very busy acclimating to his new job environment. But I hope I'm wrong. Callista? PJL? In or out? (No pressure. :( )

Calli and PJL already indicated their wish to participate. At one time, Calli's husband and friend--are they Storyist users?--were also interested, but in JaNoWriMo itself rather than the group novel, I think. Still, she may be able to persuade them. And I wouldn't write off Isaac--he said he was interested and he could contribute as many words as he wanted. I don't remember Steve saying he wanted to add this to his no doubt enormous workload. So that gives us 6-8 folks already. At circa 10,000 words apiece, we're already looking at 60,000-80,000 words.

Agreed. In fact, I can envision some central body (scientific? mystical?) looking in on the agent from time to time, in each chapter, tying them together with their dialogue. Perhaps each chapter can end with a clue (a la The da Vinci code) that causes these overseers to bounce the agent to another place and time. Perhaps he/she doesn't even know he/she is an agent. (Is this beginning to sound too much like Quantum Leap?)

I like this idea. Are we looking at one agent across multiple times and places, then? I'd thought of Irina, Elvis, and the squirrel :) as different agents working toward the same goal, but I guess there could be a real snap to one agent finding his/her personality changing dramatically as the circumstances change. In that case, though, we have to agree on what kind of personality the agent has to begin with, because a hard-boiled tough guy cop is going to be seriously bent out of shape to find himself in ankle-length robes or your typical Elvis suit! (That would be very funny in itself.) We'll also need a rough ordering of chapters if we're to construct a clue directing the agent to the next stage.

 

Calli, Isaac, and PJL will check in soon, I'm sure, and we can flesh this out a bit more.

Marguerite

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Are we looking at one agent across multiple times and places, then? I'd thought of Irina, Elvis, and the squirrel :) as different agents working toward the same goal, but I guess there could be a real snap to one agent finding his/her personality changing dramatically as the circumstances change.

Why not? Mind is just something the brain does. Different brain, different mind. But clearly the squirrel is going to need something like human intelligence to locate the "Acorn Of Destiny." :(

 

Agreement on a single personality might prove too confining (and again, too much like Quantum Leap). Perhaps the "leaping personality" can take a back seat and narrate through the host's eyes, then, "ghost like", take over at an opportune moment to...what? Correct the timeline? Locate the King's Missing Cosmic Cookie Jar? Assassinate the Evil Alien Overlord? Serve a subpoena?

 

Then again... multiple agents could be easier, and allow us all to independently and simultaneously write our chapters. But tying them all together into a coherent story could prove to be nearly impossible without a very good idea of the "story question" (forgive the jargon) beforehand. Without that all we have is a handful of short stories without direction or resolution. And while I'm on the subject, who gets to write the climax? Or is this going to be one of those multiple-climactic experiments?

 

I agree that ending each chapter with a clue for the next chapter creates a constraint. Actually two: writing order and character objective. Is it fair to make the next person interpret and solve your clue? No but it could be fun. Each chapter could begin with the Overseer interpreting the clue in a way that leads to the writer's chosen time and place, to which the Agent's "ghost" is then sent. But as you say, it means creating a writing order. That could be too big a price to pay for this structure.

 

What do you think?

-Thoth.

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As each day goes by, I just see us coming closer to the start date. It would be nice to have a solid head count, a buy in from everyone and a firm plan.

carve

Sorry to be a bit slow on the uptake, but I realized this morning that two separate projects have become conflated here. Callista initially asked if any Storyists wanted to join her, her husband, and her best friend in JaNoWriMo, which would replicate the November Novel Writing Month: individual authors writing their own 50,000 books within a 30-day period.

 

As we shot ideas back and forth, someone--I think it was Isaac, seconded by Thoth--suggested a writing circle, where the group worked on a novel one person at a time, with no word count or time deadlines, only the need to stay somehow within the parameters of the project.

 

So Calli's cheer, which restarted this thread before Christmas, was for JaNoWriMo, which I can't do because I'm still revising my first novel (hoped I'd be done by now, but family commitments and an imagination block interfered). The group novel we can start whenever we get ready--although I think there's an advantage to pushing it forward, or we'll never start at all--and whether we write the chapters simultaneously or one after another depends on how we want to proceed (see my comments to Thoth, below).

Best,

Marguerite

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Why not? Mind is just something the brain does. Different brain, different mind. But clearly the squirrel is going to need something like human intelligence to locate the "Acorn Of Destiny." :(

I agree: why not? If everyone is happy with that approach, I'm fine with it, too. I assume the squirrel was a joke, but if Carve was serious, the "agent mind" can provide whatever analytical skills his furry friend requires.

Agreement on a single personality might prove too confining (and again, too much like Quantum Leap). Perhaps the "leaping personality" can take a back seat and narrate through the host's eyes, then, "ghost like", take over at an opportune moment to...what? Correct the timeline? Locate the King's Missing Cosmic Cookie Jar? Assassinate the Evil Alien Overlord? Serve a subpoena?

What I had in mind here was the protagonist's emotional reactions to being in one body or another, which to me would seem to be an important part of the story as well as adding to the humor and interest. It needn't be so detailed as to constrict individual writers' approaches, but I think we need at least a rough idea if we're going to use a single agent.

 

For example, 16th-century elite Russian women were confined to the house and isolated from men of their own social class (excluding close relatives). They had no male friends, and their closest emotional ties were not to their husbands but to their sisters, mothers, and mothers-in-law. They also had no education. A Humphrey Bogart-type character would react to that situation quite differently from my originally conceived modern feminist and would have a quite different set of skills to apply to solving the assigned problem.

 

We could choose to ignore that angle and present the characters independently, but I'd like at least to consider the options. This also raises the question of character arc. Are we simply going to dispense with that? Does each character have a separate arc? Does the agent develop over time? If so, we'd need to know where s/he was at the beginning and where s/he is going if we're to incorporate stages along the way.

 

I'd suggest we include some kind of character development. Admittedly, we're writing this for fun, but you never know: maybe the six or so of us will jointly become the next J.K. Rowling, Web version, and it's always easier to build character in from the beginning rather than adding it after the first draft.

Then again... multiple agents could be easier, and allow us all to independently and simultaneously write our chapters. But tying them all together into a coherent story could prove to be nearly impossible without a very good idea of the "story question" (forgive the jargon) beforehand. Without that all we have is a handful of short stories without direction or resolution. And while I'm on the subject, who gets to write the climax? Or is this going to be one of those multiple-climactic experiments?

I think either way we're going to need a good idea of the "story question" beforehand. A single undefined agent zipping all over the map would be even more disconnected. My thought was that we would write the individual chapters, broken down into as many sections as necessary to tell a complete tale, then decide as a group how to intermingle them, then write the conclusion and eventually the introduction as a round robin. But if we have one agent morphing through characters, then we would want each time period to exist in its own self-contained chapter. Otherwise it would be hopelessly confusing. Either way, I think, we would need the Overseer and the clues to tie the chapters together.

I agree that ending each chapter with a clue for the next chapter creates a constraint. Actually two: writing order and character objective. Is it fair to make the next person interpret and solve your clue? No but it could be fun. Each chapter could begin with the Overseer interpreting the clue in a way that leads to the writer's chosen time and place, to which the Agent's "ghost" is then sent. But as you say, it means creating a writing order. That could be too big a price to pay for this structure.

Writing a novel creates constraints. We can't just send the guy/gal all over the place with no sense of where s/he is going. This doesn't strike me as an unworkable constraint. When you first raised it, though, I thought you meant that the clue and the interpretation would end the chapter, so that the next author could start fresh and unconstrained. For example, my chapter on Irina might end with her discovering a pair of blue suede shoes and a tiny UFO, which she would puzzle over until the Overseer chipped in by whatever communications device these folks use, saying, "Roswell, New Mexico, 1947," and off she goes to become mini-Elvis or whomever. I wouldn't identify her new persona; you would. So all we'd need is an indication of which chapter came next and who was writing it. The next author could even suggest which clue to use.

 

Before we can start, though, we do need (1) a story goal; (2) a protagonist, with or without a character arc; (3) an antagonist; (4) the time constraint that keeps these people moving--do they have only 24 hours in one body before they have to move on, and a set number of bodies they can inhabit before the strains of time-jumping become too great? (5) a series of general settings, one for each author (1550s Russia, 1947 New Mexico, wherever/whenever Carve really wants to be, etc.) that contrast in interesting ways; (6) a similar series of major characters, which don't need as much pre-definition but ideally would also contrast in interesting ways; and (7) a sense of what the Overseer/organization can, can't, and will do in every chapter to tie the whole together.

 

That should keep us busy for a week or two! :)

Marguerite

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A Humphrey Bogart-type character would react to that situation quite differently from my originally conceived modern feminist and would have a quite different set of skills to apply to solving the assigned problem.

As s/he would inside a pre-teen boy from Tennessee (or a squirrel). Agreed. A sound idea. Let's go with that.

This also raises the question of character arc. Are we simply going to dispense with that?

I hope not. But, as a rule, secret agents typically don't "develop". Look at James Bond or Laura Croft or even Danger Mouse. No character development there beyond the initial introduction. Their personalities are carved in cement. But that's not to say they don't ever feel things. Especially when there is a love interest. Another matter to be discussed.

I think either way we're going to need a good idea of the "story question" beforehand.

Yep.

A single undefined agent zipping all over the map would be even more disconnected.

I was thinking of one "zip" per chapter. Weren't you? As for "undefined", I introduced the "ghost" agent so the writer could use both the host's writer-defined character and the ghost's group-defined character in the same body. Another source of conflict here.

My thought was that we would write the individual chapters, broken down into as many sections as necessary to tell a complete tale...

In a single time and place.

...then decide as a group how to intermingle them...

That's the hard part. By "intermingle" do you mean intermingle Sections (I hope not) or Chapters (as I've been assuming)?

 

Exceeded allowed number of quote blocks.

TBC

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...then write the conclusion and eventually the introduction as a round robin.

Or (and I'm just running this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it) we could just do the whole thing as a round robin as Isaac originally suggested. Say, a thousand words or so within a week, and then pass it on. Could be interesting. Could be a disaster. As noted, we all have different styles.

But if we have one agent morphing through characters, then we would want each time period to exist in its own self-contained chapter. Otherwise it would be hopelessly confusing.

Self-contained; yes, to a degree. Hopelessly confusing; no, just challenging. As mentioned above, the conflict between two minds in the same body can be s interesting as that between a mind and a body. (See Robert A. Heinlein's Sci-Fi classic, I Will Fear No Evil.)

Either way, I think, we would need the Overseer and the clues to tie the chapters together.

Agreed.

When you first raised it, though, I thought you meant that the clue and the interpretation would end the chapter...

The clue would end the Chapter. The Overseer's interpretation would either be the first Section of the next Chapter, or a mini-Chapter written by the next Chapter's writer. Each writer would state the clue before we started. E.g., mine would be a blue suede shoe (good guess M. Too obvious?) with a "Dry Clean Only" tag written in an extraterrestrial language. Or perhaps just the shoe. We can leave it to the writer/Overseer in the next Chapter to read the tag and say, "Roswell, New Mexico, 1947."

Before we can start, though, we do need:

(1) a story goal;

(2) a protagonist, with or without a character arc;

(3) an antagonist;

(4) the time constraint that keeps these people moving--do they have only 24 hours in one body before they have to move on, and a set number of bodies they can inhabit before the strains of time-jumping become too great?

(5) a series of general settings, one for each author (1550s Russia, 1947 New Mexico, wherever/whenever Carve really wants to be, etc.) that contrast in interesting ways;

(6) a similar series of major characters, which don't need as much pre-definition but ideally would also contrast in interesting ways; and

(7) a sense of what the Overseer/organization can, can't, and will do in every chapter to tie the whole together.

(1) A tough one since it's something we all have to agree on.

(2) Without. Spies don't arc. But you never know.

(3) Only if the antagonist is also a time-agent. Otherwise s/he is unique to each chapter. Of course, the antagonist need not be a person.

(4) A time traveler with time constraints? Hmm. Limiting the time spent in one body--or else the "ghost's" mind is imprinted permanently by the host's brain and they "fade away"--sound like a good idea.

(5) A series of general settings, one for each author. Of course. See (8).

(6) A series of major characters beyond the time-agent and the Overseer(s) isn't necessary up front since they are the only people operating across Chapters. Or are they? That depends on what we want to do with the protagonist.

(7) I see the Overseer as the narrative bridge between Chapters. He/She/It simply finds the reason for moving the time-agent from one body to the next. He/She/It might define the time-agent's task at the beginning of the story and, perhaps, play a part in wrapping up the end. I'd rather not give him/her/it any more power than that. An all-powerful Overseeer doesn't need a time-agent.

(8) Each writer's clue, which connects one Chapter to the next.

 

I guess we'll have to bounce this around some more.

-Thoth.

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I hope not. But, as a rule, secret agents typically don't "develop". Look at James Bond or Laura Croft or even Danger Mouse. No character development there beyond the initial introduction. Their personalities are carved in cement. But that's not to say they don't ever feel things. Especially when there is a love interest. Another matter to be discussed.

 

I was thinking of one "zip" per chapter. Weren't you? As for "undefined", I introduced the "ghost" agent so the writer could use both the host's writer-defined character and the ghost's group-defined character in the same body. Another source of conflict here.

 

In a single time and place.

 

By "intermingle" do you mean intermingle Sections (I hope not) or Chapters (as I've been assuming)?

TBC

Some confusion here caused by my talking about two different possibilities. If we're all agreed that we want one "ghost" agent bopping into and out of different characters, then yes, we should definitely place each persona/time period in its own chapter, with its own author, characters, setting, and clue. Otherwise, it will be impossible to follow. So then we are indeed talking about one "zip" per chapter.

 

The "intermingling"/section alternative assumed a group of agents simultaneously working toward a single goal. We seem to have discarded that option, which is fine with me. (We need to narrow this down somehow!)

 

On the "ghost" agent, I agree absolutely. I thought you were arguing that defining the "ghost" would overly restrict the participating writers--a point with which I didn't agree, so I'm glad that's not what you were saying. And true, agents don't usually "develop," although they need a few issues to make them interesting.

 

On the antagonist, I think we need a general antagonist for the group, similar to the "ghost" agent, who also takes different forms in each time period (an owl to the squirrel? a mean talent scout for Elvis? ;) ). That will increase the coherence of the whole and add to the tension: can X stop Y before s/he's forced to tell the king there will be no more chocolate chip cookies ever? Before s/he's turned into an Egyptian crocodile hunter for all eternity?

 

By story goal, I meant only what the agent is looking for and why. What will happen to the universe if s/he fails?

 

On the Overseer, sounds fine. On the love interest, could get quite interesting if the agent switches age and gender together with time periods, but love interests are always useful. Can Squirrel save Ms. Squirrel before the Owl pinches the Acorn of Destiny and all Time stops?! :D

Pleased with the progress we're making,

M

 

P.S. The problem with using the round robin throughout, especially with deadlines, is that people may just slap something together because they're over-committed. But if we are all agreed on a general plan, we could use a combination, since nothing stops people from starting their chapters before their turn rolls around.

 

P.P.S. The blue suede shoe is not too obvious. How many people connect Elvis with Roswell, NM? I sure didn't.

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(1) The conflict between two minds in the same body can be s interesting as that between a mind and a body.

(2) A time traveler with time constraints? Hmm. Limiting the time spent in one body--or else the "ghost's" mind is imprinted permanently by the host's brain and they "fade away"--sound like a good idea.

(3) A series of major characters beyond the time-agent and the Overseer(s) isn't necessary up front since they are the only people operating across Chapters. Or are they? That depends on what we want to do with the protagonist.

I agree with 1 and 2. The idea behind 3 was to avoid having multiple similar characters in the different times and places, so that just as we might want to go Russia/New Mexico/India/Rome and 4th/16th/20th/11th centuries, we might schedule young married woman/old male hermit/child future rock star/squirrel/elderly spinster, etc., rather than lumping all the women together, then all the men. Nothing fancy or constraining. The only reason it has any importance is that we need a rough structure to decide the order of the clues.

M

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How many people connect Elvis with Roswell, NM? I sure didn't.

 

Oh. Didn't you? Mwahaha!

 

But seriously. I agree. We are making progress. But I'd like to hear more from the others. Do they agree with what little we have so far? Disagree? Strongly disagree?

 

I'm thinking that the main protagonist could also be the love interest. There's a major twist for you. And we could make him/her (we won't reveal its sex) a time-agent also. Thoughts?

 

As for my characters: Young Elvis, bunch-o blue suede aliens, maybe a hound-dog (crying all the time). Part of the problem with coming up with characters is you need a pretty good idea of what's going to happen first.

 

Anybody?

-Thoth.

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I'm thinking that the main protagonist could also be the love interest. There's a major twist for you. And we could make him/her (we won't reveal its sex) a time-agent also. Thoughts?

How would that work? The agent is in love with him/herself? ;)

 

I, too, would like to hear what the others have to say. Everyone but Carve must be in Hawaii. How did we mess up?

M

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How would that work? The agent is in love with him/herself? ;)

Different agent, silly. But your way could work. If the agent slipped into different bodies from different points in time he/she could meet him/her self and unknowingly fall in love. But the future self would know the truth and ... hilarity ensues?

I, too, would like to hear what the others have to say. Everyone but Carve must be in Hawaii. How did we mess up?

Ah. Hawaii. New York peaked out at 53F yesterday. Today, 44F with rain. Snow is expected on New Years Day, and thereafter it probably won't get out of the 30's for a while. Hawaii sounds very nice.

 

A hui hou

and

Hau`oli Makahiki Hou.

-Thoth

 

P.S. Hawaiian Phrases Site.

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Different agent, silly. But your way could work. If the agent slipped into different bodies from different points in time he/she could meet him/her self and unknowingly fall in love. But the future self would know the truth and ... hilarity ensues?

Now I'm really confused. Did you mean that the main antagonist could also be the love interest? (I can hear my freelance editor frothing at the mouth at the very idea.)

 

If the agent is in a different body, I don't think s/he can fall in love with him/herself in another form. I realize this is comedy and our call, but the one "rule" of time travel is that you can't run into yourself. If you do, bad things happen.

 

But honestly, I think it would be much easier to write if we have a protagonist (who's already morphing into multiple characters), an antagonist (ditto), and a love interest (another agent, also morphing). That leaves plenty of scope for imagination and humor. For example, if your protagonist becomes Elvis, would the love interest be the hound dog (no wonder she's crying all the time!)? ;) One of the aliens? Elvis himself, if you make the protagonist someone else?

 

I'm more interested in who the protagonist and the antagonist are, but I think we need to wait to decide that until the others weigh in.

 

Ah, Hawaii ... I wish! Meanwhile, back to Sir Percy.

Marguerite

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Did you mean that the main antagonist could also be the love interest? (I can hear my freelance editor frothing at the mouth at the very idea.)

Bad Girl stories sell, M. And in real life, antagonists are often love interests. (Hey, we're only men. Pity us.)

If the agent is in a different body, I don't think s/he can fall in love with him/herself in another form. I realize this is comedy and our call, but the one "rule" of time travel is that you can't run into yourself. If you do, bad things happen.

Rules? I am GOD in my universe. Besides, I can dimly recall a story about a time-agent (in his own body) who has to undo what he has done and so becomes his own antagonist. He can't understand how this "bad guy" knows him so well until, at the end, he discovers that he has met the enemy and he is himself. I think there was a Star Trek Voyager a little like that. But I digress. If you think that making the antagonist his/her own protagonist, let alone his/her own love interest, over complicates things, so be it.

I think it would be much easier to write if we have a protagonist (who's already morphing into multiple characters), an antagonist (ditto), and a love interest (another agent, also morphing). That leaves plenty of scope for imagination and humor.

I suppose. Of course, we could simplify things even further by eliminating the love interest (killed by the antagonist before Chapter 1?) and making the antagonist in each Chapter unique. Simpler for the writer but not as interesting. (Just an alternative suggestion.)

...if your protagonist becomes Elvis, would the love interest be the hound dog (no wonder she's crying all the time!)? ;)

Hey! Hands off my Elvis, M. And let's leave the bestiality to Secret Squirrel, thank you very much. (Funny though.)

I'm more interested in who the protagonist and the antagonist are, but I think we need to wait to decide that until the others weigh in.

Agreed.

Ah, Hawaii ... I wish!

Agreed.

 

My best to Sir Percy.

-Thoth.

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Steve S.

 

If you've been reading this you've probably noticed that the NaNoWriMo 2007 thread has gotten way off topic. This is the 50th post and only about three have anything to do with NaNoWriMo 2007. I was wondering if it might be possible to move all this new writing project stuff (from post #4 on, believe it or not) to a new thread. Say, "Forum Writing Project" or some such. Assuming no one objects, or you have a better idea.

 

Just trying to keep things neat and tidy.

-Thoth

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Bad Girl stories sell, M. And in real life, antagonists are often love interests. (Hey, we're only men. Pity us.)

Tough to pull off in a novel, though. If the antagonist is a true antagonist, s/he's not sympathetic, and the protagonist looks like an idiot. If the antagonist is sympathetic, the readers start pulling for him/her and feel cheated when the romance doesn't work out. And if it does work out, then the love interest trumps the antagonist function and you have a conventional love story in which hero and heroine don't hit it off at first but are destined for each other, as anyone over the age of five (except their besotted selves) can figure out within about 10 pages.

Rules? I am GOD in my universe. Besides, I can dimly recall a story about a time-agent (in his own body) who has to undo what he has done and so becomes his own antagonist. He can't understand how this "bad guy" knows him so well until, at the end, he discovers that he has met the enemy and he is himself. I think there was a Star Trek Voyager a little like that. But I digress. If you think that making the antagonist his/her own protagonist, let alone his/her own love interest, over complicates things, so be it.

Did they use it again in Voyager? I think there was an original Star Trek with a similar premise: The Lazarus Syndrome (or something like that). Jasper Fforde also uses it in the latest installment of his Thursday Next series--highly recommended, BTW; I liked them all except vol. 4. We could do something like this, if the group likes the idea. Perhaps our mystery time agent has discovered, after serving the Overseer for umpteen years, that the Overseer threatens his/her love interest (giving the Overseer a devilish plan is too similar to Fforde's plot)?

I suppose. Of course, we could simplify things even further by eliminating the love interest (killed by the antagonist before Chapter 1?) and making the antagonist in each Chapter unique. Simpler for the writer but not as interesting. (Just an alternative suggestion.)

Oh, come on, we can handle a few challenges. Besides, why would all these different people be trying to stop the protagonist from achieving his/her goals? And a tortured hero recalling his dead love is so Mad Max (although if we did kill the love interest off, the agent could be fighting him/herself to resuscitate his/her love before s/he is wiped out again--lost in the pronouns yet?). We'd reveal up front whether the love interest was male or female in that case, but I suppose we could hedge on whether the agent was gay or straight.

Hey! Hands off my Elvis, M. And let's leave the bestiality to Secret Squirrel, thank you very much. (Funny though.)

He's yours, all yours! Just remember, the poor dude's only 12 years old. ;)

M

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Tough to pull off in a novel, though. If the antagonist is a true antagonist, s/he's not sympathetic, and the protagonist looks like an idiot. If the antagonist is sympathetic, the readers start pulling for him/her and feel cheated when the romance doesn't work out. And if it does work out, then the love interest trumps the antagonist function and you have a conventional love story in which hero and heroine don't hit it off at first but are destined for each other, as anyone over the age of five (except their besotted selves) can figure out within about 10 pages.

I don't have a problem with the protagonist looking like an idiot. You've just described about 95% of all comedy spy novels and films. As for the reader sympathizing with the antagonist...well, anti-heros are heros too. Antagonists don't need to be loathsome. In the best crime/spy/mystery novels the antagonist is always in some way admirable (IMHO). About the love interest trumping the antagonist function: How many spy stories have you read where that doesn't happen? Boy meets girl. Girl is bad. Boy turns Girl and together they defeat a greater evil. In summery: never assume something can't work. It can all work, and work well, if we're clever enough. (Are we clever enough?)

Did they use it again in Voyager?

Yep. I think it's the one where they go to 20th Century Earth and meet a vagrant who was a time-agent, and then have to work against the time-agent's future self who is angry at the Voyager folks for getting him stuck in Earth's past and never got over it. Or something like that. Can't seem to remember the title.

Oh, come on, we can handle a few challenges.

That was my point. You were the one who wanted to simplify. I was just pointing out that we have options with respect to degrees of complexity.

Besides, why would all these different people be trying to stop the protagonist from achieving his/her goals?

Oh I don't know...maybe they're...evil? I'm sure we can come up with a plausible reason if we want to. Yes, we are that good.

And a tortured hero recalling his dead love is so Mad Max.

Mad Max and many others. Avenging a dead spouse/sibling/child/parent is classic.

...although if we did kill the love interest off, the agent could be fighting him/herself to resuscitate his/her love before s/he is wiped out again.... We'd reveal up front whether the love interest was male or female in that case, but I suppose we could hedge on whether the agent was gay or straight.

There you go.

He's yours, all yours! Just remember, the poor dude's only 12 years old. ;)

Physically. Mentally he's an adult time agent. Besides, I don't know what was going through your mind at 12, but 12-year-old boys are...well...different from 12-year-old girls. In any event, we'll keep it strictly PG. (I trust we can all agree on that.)

 

Still waiting to hear from others about the levels of complexity we should commit to.

-Thoth.

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Still waiting to hear from others about the levels of complexity we should commit to.

-Thoth.

Meanwhile, I'm going to start a new topic, as this thread has become enormous. So, Steve, please move "Group novel structure" as well as this thread to the new forum when you set it up.

Marguerite

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