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So I'm still philhanson

Yeah. I buddied you.

Because you left out the space between your first and last names it would be nearly impossible for someone to "steal" your name. I, on the other hand, had to compete with little Katie Thoth (from American Fork, UT) who took both "Katie" and "Thoth" (greedy, greedy, greedy — "Katie" was my second choice!). There's also a ThothWajet17 (figure that one out) of Spokane, and a Thoths Nether Stylus (sounds dirty) from Bramton, Canada.

 

How did "Thoth" get so popular?

- Thoth-o-rama-pudin-pie.

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At the risk of sounding laughably uncool and out of the loop, is "thoth" a popular fictional character these days, or is there some other pop culture reference I'm missing?

 

I know that Thoth is an Egyptian god, but I couldn't imagine that name popular with the kiddies (Katie Thoth may actually have that as a given name, however).

 

I would have thought that other than the odd Mr, Mrs, Miss, or Mrs Thoth, you would have had that name all to yourself (well, and the Egyptian gods). ;)

 

Orren

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At the risk of sounding laughably uncool and out of the loop, is "thoth" a popular fictional character these days, or is there some other pop culture reference I'm missing?

 

I know that Thoth is an Egyptian god, but I couldn't imagine that name popular with the kiddies (Katie Thoth may actually have that as a given name, however).

 

I would have thought that other than the odd Mr, Mrs, Miss, or Mrs Thoth, you would have had that name all to yourself (well, and the Egyptian gods). :)

 

Orren

I don't know how popular "Thoth" is as a given or family name. But if you Goggle it you get over a million-and-a-half hits. As for current pop culture, check out "Thoth" on Wikipedia under the "Thoth in more recent times" subsection. There are novels (including Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods), computer games, even Cairo University's logo embodies the image of Thoth sitting on his throne (not a bad likeness of me).

 

But no, not knowing Thoth from pop culture doesn't make you laughably uncool; knowing it does. B)

- Thoth

 

P.S. Sorry TAS, we are hopelessly off topic.

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But no, not knowing Thoth from pop culture doesn't make you laughably uncool; knowing it does. B)

 

Of course, if you are an underground-type musician, being laughably uncool...is cool. :)

 

Take care,

The Lord of Wolves <— my "goth moniker"...but I write under "Orren Merton."

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Of course, if you are an underground-type musician, being laughably uncool...is cool. B)

 

Take care,

The Lord of Wolves <— my "goth moniker"...but I write under "Orren Merton."

 

Is that why your South Park toon is Goth with little claws, lol. It all makes sense now.

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Is that why your South Park toon is Goth with little claws, lol. It all makes sense now.

 

Yup! B)

 

And on topic—

 

I have used Google Wave. I tried to use it for a collaborative book project. I tried to use it for a collaborative music project. It's just too...unbaked. As much as Google may try to sell it as "communication for the future" it really struck us (meaning me and the group that I was using it with) more like "super-instant-messaging-with-offlining-and-media-embedding."

* It's slow as hell (at least as of a few months ago; we gave up)

* With longer Waves, it becomes almost impossible to navigate

* It's search was very erratic (ironic for a Google app, no?)

* The more people are involved, the more chaotic your Wave becomes; one friend put me on a 200+ user Wave of digital audio thinkers, and it was truly a disaster. There was no way to single out the comments or conversations of one or more people, if you added something 3500 words down it was almost impossible to find, etc.

 

Now with Google Buzz, I get the feeling that Wave is going to never leave preview stage—that they've pilfered the parts people liked and put it in Buzz, and that Wave may remain more of a "technology testing ground" than a complete app.

 

Anyway, I think if you want to release your novel to multiple people to read and comment on, you'd probably do better uploading it to Google Docs than Wave. But that's just my opinion.

 

Take care,

Orren

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Yup! B)

 

And on topic—

 

I have used Google Wave. I tried to use it for a collaborative book project. I tried to use it for a collaborative music project. It's just too...unbaked. As much as Google may try to sell it as "communication for the future" it really struck us (meaning me and the group that I was using it with) more like "super-instant-messaging-with-offlining-and-media-embedding."

* It's slow as hell (at least as of a few months ago; we gave up)

* With longer Waves, it becomes almost impossible to navigate

* It's search was very erratic (ironic for a Google app, no?)

* The more people are involved, the more chaotic your Wave becomes; one friend put me on a 200+ user Wave of digital audio thinkers, and it was truly a disaster. There was no way to single out the comments or conversations of one or more people, if you added something 3500 words down it was almost impossible to find, etc.

 

Now with Google Buzz, I get the feeling that Wave is going to never leave preview stage—that they've pilfered the parts people liked and put it in Buzz, and that Wave may remain more of a "technology testing ground" than a complete app.

 

Anyway, I think if you want to release your novel to multiple people to read and comment on, you'd probably do better uploading it to Google Docs than Wave. But that's just my opinion.

 

Take care,

Orren

 

Yeah I did a few pages in Wave and no formatting came with it and I couldn't find a way to add it, yikes. It would be nice if Storyist had some sort of sharing or multi person editing option, hmmmm.

 

Only one chapter left!

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Great job!

 

 

 

It always does in the middle. Don't give up! :)

 

I'm in the opposite place:

 

My first novel, which is about 95,000 words, is currently in the hands of a number of agents. After they reject it, I'll self-publish (not to be negative, but I am goth, after all... B) )

 

But what I'm working on right now is my second novel. I'm about 2/3rds done...and at about 137,000 words! So I'm actually going through some of what I've written now, and removing stuff, to cut that length down! I think an entire chapter is going to go.

 

BTW—Storyist is great for this, I don't actually "delete" large sections I remove, I move it out of my manuscript to a notebook entry that specifies where I removed the text from. Yeay Storyist!

 

Take care,

Orren

 

So Orren, it's been several months, how is this project coming along???

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So Orren, it's been several months, how is this project coming along???

 

Which one? I mention two above! B)

 

My finished novel, an urban fantasy novel called The Deviant, has a few more rejections under its belt, has a submission package in the hands of another agent (and TOR Books), and we'll see. I'm not really expecting much if anything to come of it. So the plan from here is to:

* Write a short story "prequel" to the novel, that takes place with the same main character but around 1817 London (vs. The Deviant which takes place "today" in central California). Written—with the editor now!

* Attempt to get short story published in Fantasy magazine (online or off) to build interest in character/name

* Get orrenmerton.com up and running. in progress

* Start serializing novel on website to build interest. (It worked for Scalzi...)

* Start podcasting/posting on YouTube chapter-by-chapter podcast/radioplay of novel.

* After 6 months or so (the max time any agent/publisher says they'll hold onto submission packets before responding) if there is no interest, self-publish—hopefully after having built some momentum!

 

As for the novel in progress, a YA paranormal romance tentatively titled Melanie's Ghosts, it is still in progress. Ironically, the progress is backwards; I have re-framed the entire novel to reduce the length, and I'm about half-way done re-framing and editing the novel which is now down to about 125,000 words (and should end up with the first 2/3rds being closer to 115,000 when I'm done). While some people enjoy really long novels, they tend to scare publishers away, and if I can get the finished novel down to 150,000 to 175,000 words, I'll be very happy. I'm assuming a very rough estimate of 100,000 Storyist manuscript words = about 300 paperback pages, and I think a novel that would be over 500 pages is as "unsellable" as a novel that is under 200 pages.

 

Ultimately, both novels could be series. I have continuing ideas for both.

 

Thanks for asking!

Orren

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You know, the whole drumming up interest thing never occurred to me. I thought that's what the publisher was supposed to do. Has the business changed that much?

 

Yes and no.

 

First of all, I (and by agreement, TAS) am (are) talking about drumming up interest either before a publisher is involved, as a way of attracting a publisher, or in lieu of a publisher, if self-publishing.

 

The eternal question, then and now, is in an industry where agents and publishers probably see 10 million queries and manuscripts a year, how do you get noticed, assuming you're not playing golf with the publisher or the lover of an agent, etc?

 

In the music world, very few people (not even Madonna) were given record contracts just for sending in cassettes. That never stopped groups from sending tapes out to record companies, but the main way to atttract the attention of a publisher or manager, and this was done by playing gigs.

 

In the writing world, there are no gigs to play, but if you can attract enough of an audience to yourself other ways (via becoming a published short storyist, or serializing a novel that attracts a buzz, etc) that can also draw publishers to your work.

 

So in this sense, drumming up interest is a way to stand above the crowd, to get noticed in an exceptionally crowded field—and if you are noticed and published, then the publisher will come in to do marketing for you.

 

Clearly, for a self-published work, there is nobody else doing marketing (unless you can afford to hire a marketing firm) so you're trying to drum up interest as there is nobody else to do it.

 

But in the broad sense, speaking from the publishing side of things, we always want authors to market their own books along with us! Why wouldn't we? We want authors to have blogs, make appearances at conventions, do whatever they do and promote the books there. Sure, we do what we do that the author cant—advertise, send review copies, and so on—but if the author has a twitter account and becomes a popular Tweeter, that can only help. Look at Neil Gaiman; do you think his publisher tweets for him? Of course not--he did that on his own to connect with his audience and he's doing so. It's amazing self-promotion for all his works as well. Next month, for example, I'm accompanying one of our authors to the ASCAP "Create Music Now!" expo in LA, where he set up a book signing. I'll be bringing the books, helping him set up, and collect money. Our marketing department is paying to advertise his appearance. So it was his initiative, but we're supporting him materially, physically, and financially.

 

The thing is, publishers have always wanted authors to help them market their own books—there was never a time that a publisher wanted an author to remain uninvolved. (unless such a horribly obnoxious human being that to know the person is to reject the work). It's just that now there are so many venues: FB, Twitter, blogs, custom websites, YouTube, you name it, that are personal. There's a lot more opportunity for an author to market him or herself—and to self-publish.

 

Orren

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Orren, I had never suspected you had such an interesting job. But I fear that I may be one of those so horribly obnoxious human beings that to know me is to reject my work. You would be amazed at the number of people that are physically repulsed by people in wheelchairs (sadly, I do).

 

You've opened my eyes, Lord of Wolves.

Howllllllllllllllllllllllllll.

- Thoth, God of Writing (among other things).

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Yes and no.

 

First of all, I (and by agreement, TAS) am (are) talking about drumming up interest either before a publisher is involved, as a way of attracting a publisher, or in lieu of a publisher, if self-publishing.

 

The eternal question, then and now, is in an industry where agents and publishers probably see 10 million queries and manuscripts a year, how do you get noticed, assuming you're not playing golf with the publisher or the lover of an agent, etc?

 

In the music world, very few people (not even Madonna) were given record contracts just for sending in cassettes. That never stopped groups from sending tapes out to record companies, but the main way to atttract the attention of a publisher or manager, and this was done by playing gigs.

 

In the writing world, there are no gigs to play, but if you can attract enough of an audience to yourself other ways (via becoming a published short storyist, or serializing a novel that attracts a buzz, etc) that can also draw publishers to your work.

 

So in this sense, drumming up interest is a way to stand above the crowd, to get noticed in an exceptionally crowded field—and if you are noticed and published, then the publisher will come in to do marketing for you.

 

Clearly, for a self-published work, there is nobody else doing marketing (unless you can afford to hire a marketing firm) so you're trying to drum up interest as there is nobody else to do it.

 

But in the broad sense, speaking from the publishing side of things, we always want authors to market their own books along with us! Why wouldn't we? We want authors to have blogs, make appearances at conventions, do whatever they do and promote the books there. Sure, we do what we do that the author cant—advertise, send review copies, and so on—but if the author has a twitter account and becomes a popular Tweeter, that can only help. Look at Neil Gaiman; do you think his publisher tweets for him? Of course not--he did that on his own to connect with his audience and he's doing so. It's amazing self-promotion for all his works as well. Next month, for example, I'm accompanying one of our authors to the ASCAP "Create Music Now!" expo in LA, where he set up a book signing. I'll be bringing the books, helping him set up, and collect money. Our marketing department is paying to advertise his appearance. So it was his initiative, but we're supporting him materially, physically, and financially.

 

The thing is, publishers have always wanted authors to help them market their own books—there was never a time that a publisher wanted an author to remain uninvolved. (unless such a horribly obnoxious human being that to know the person is to reject the work). It's just that now there are so many venues: FB, Twitter, blogs, custom websites, YouTube, you name it, that are personal. There's a lot more opportunity for an author to market him or herself—and to self-publish.

 

Orren

 

To be honest if I'm feeling my novel and script enough, I may invest a fair amount of money in a blog/web site, I plan on putting alot of the background of my universe online. Races, planets, backgrounds, artworks etc.

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To be honest if I'm feeling my novel and script enough, I may invest a fair amount of money in a blog/web site, I plan on putting alot of the background of my universe online. Races, planets, backgrounds, artworks etc.

Will it be on your personal blog? If not, please give us a link when you're ready.

 

- Thoth.

 

BTW: Hey, 3 pages! This "Still Writing" thread has earned a red HOT TOPIC folder.

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Will it be on your personal blog? If not, please give us a link when you're ready.

 

- Thoth.

 

BTW: Hey, 3 pages! This "Still Writing" thread has earned a red HOT TOPIC folder.

 

My blog now is pretty lame. This would be if I feel what I'm starting to write is worth the expense. I personally don't know how good the story actually is. Should it happen I'll post it up.

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I personally don't know how good the story actually is.

 

The best advice I can give you is this:

Find a friend or acquaintance who is into the genre of your story (sounds like space opera) and who you know well enough that s/he can give you bad news and you'll take it. A friend who doesn't want to give bad news, or someone who is just blindly supportive, won't do. Let the person read your outline or story and get honest feedback--tell them to be BREWTAL. If the story is good, even if they think the writing needs work, they'll let you know.

 

Sometimes, you can be so close to the story you lose confidence in it. Letting someone read it may just bring it back. B)

 

Orren

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The best advice I can give you is this:

Find a friend or acquaintance who is into the genre of your story (sounds like space opera) and who you know well enough that s/he can give you bad news and you'll take it. A friend who doesn't want to give bad news, or someone who is just blindly supportive, won't do. Let the person read your outline or story and get honest feedback--tell them to be BREWTAL. If the story is good, even if they think the writing needs work, they'll let you know.

 

Sometimes, you can be so close to the story you lose confidence in it. Letting someone read it may just bring it back. B)

 

Orren

 

That's good advice. Maybe I'm killing myself by only reading Sci Fi greats lately as well. Hard when your trying to compare yourself to CS Lewis or Asimov.

 

BTW: How did you know it was Space Opera. That's a pretty good description.

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Just hit 90k words.

Another 10,000 words and your book will be approaching Romance Novel thickness. You still have a way to go if you're looking for early Robert A. Heinlein thickness. The first draft of Stranger in a Strange Land ran 220,000-words.

 

Did you update your NaNo book length? I think you still can.

- Thoth

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Another 10,000 words and your book will be approaching Romance Novel thickness. You still have a way to go if you're looking for early Robert A. Heinlein thickness. The first draft of Stranger in a Strange Land ran 220,000-words.

 

Did you update your NaNo book length? I think you still can.

- Thoth

 

You know I tried to before and it would not let me. From what I've read online a novel from a first time author 100k is the high limit. No one is going to take a risk on a long book. I'm going to make it as long as it happens to be however. I'm think it will be around 95 to 100k first draft. Rewrite will at most add another 10-20k words. Then I may pair it down some, take out unnecessary things, anything too wordy, etc. My goal is around 100k but I don't want to limit myself.

 

How many words was the final version? I don't recall it being that thick of a book really. I am writing the final fight scene now! Exciting. Something I think will be cool from my writing style is, I love Manga and think my fights are like a fight from a manga but portrayed in words rather than visually. I hope this makes them interesting to read.

 

Edit: I thought I only had one chapter left but I have already written two additional chapters and am now on the third. I think this third one may split yet again into the "final" chapter. Think I will be pulling an all nighter to finish this book, I've written about 5k words today and the words keep coming, I'm in the zone as it were.

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Impressive.

 

How many words was the final version? I don't recall it being that thick of a book really.

Since you asked: Heinlein's editors at Putnam required him to cut the original 220,000+ words to 160,067 words. In 1962, this version received the Hugo Award for the Best Science Fiction Novel of the Year. In 1991, 3 years after Heinlein's death, Ace/Putnam published the original uncut version of the manuscript. I own both versions. Strangely, my "cut" paperback version runs 528 thin pages. My uncut hardcover runs under 500 pages. The type size and pages size makes a big difference.

 

Keep up the good work.

(Rah Rah, and all that.)

- Thoth.

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From what I've read online a novel from a first time author 100k is the high limit. No one is going to take a risk on a long book. I'm going to make it as long as it happens to be however.

 

Your instinct is right, in my opinion—write to the story, not what you read someone said somewhere on the Interweb. There is no hard and fast limit. I believe Harry Potter was JK Rowling's first and is nearly 200k for her first book. It's all a matter of persistence and luck—if the right people find it and like it, they'll work with it whether it's longer or shorter than they'd like.

 

Here's an editor who talks about books that were self-published that lead to deals:

http://www.alanrinzler.com/blog/2010/03/11...real-book-deal/

And in this case, it doesn't matter at all how long they are, the books found an audience and the publishers took it.

 

Just make the story great, and the rest will go from there. :)

 

Orren

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